Pam  00:01

Hey fellow mathers! Welcome to the podcast where Math is Figure-Out-Able! I'm Pam Harris, a former mimicker turned mather.

Kim  00:12

And I'm Kim Montague, a reasoner who now knows how to model her thinking. I have no idea if that's right.

Pam  00:17

I don't either. And we don't have the intro in front of us, so we're sort of making this up as we go. Except we do believe in what we're talking about that algorithms are amazing human achievements, but they're not very good teaching tools because they can actually trap students into using reasoning less or less sophisticated than the problems are intended to develop. Bam. Kim, we are here at NCTM. We were at NCSM. We're in Chicago. We're having a ball. We are accompanied today by several Journey members. We love our Journey members. Welcome journey members!

Journey Members  00:56

Woo-hoo!!!

Pam  00:56

There they are. That is pretty fun.

Kim  00:58

It's been so fun to see Journey members in person, and we actually get to have some dinner with some of these guys. I'm so excited.

Pam  01:05

Super excited to have dinner with some people around the world. We even have Australia represented. Canada is represented. Lots of United States. It's been super fun to run into everybody and learn. We've been learning, learning. 

Kim  01:17

Yeah.

Pam  01:18

We probably should get more sleep, but we've been learning a lot. So, Kim.

Kim  01:22

Yeah.

Pam  01:23

What's one thing that you remember from NCSM?

Kim  01:27

Oh, one? I get one? 

Pam  01:28

Start with one. Start with one. Oh, yeah. Elham Kazami

Kim  01:29

...and their group. Yeah. And the way that they are very intentionally putting into practice steps for students achievement based on the teacher's growth and the principal is... I mean, their whole system and set up about the principal being the instructional leader, not just the manager of the school. 

Pam  01:29

Unbelievable. 

Kim  01:29

But yeah, it was fantastic. I'm sure we'll talk about that a lot.  You know, the one that I'm thinking about a lot right now is Elham's session...

Pam  01:32

We will

Kim  01:32

be talking about a lot. And, you know, as much as their system was kind of... It kind of hung on. It was based on the fact that the principal was involved. The coaches were involved. The teachers had time built into their schedule in the system, so they weren't expected to do professional learning on their own time. They weren't expected to do team planning. You know like, when you get to it, that there were structured, specific times that not only the teachers attended, but like you said, the coach and the principal. And one of the things that I found really interesting was the suggestion that there does need to be somebody at the school that... What did you say? That runs the things.  Manages the building.

Pam  01:39

Manages the building. Like the mayor of the small city that makes it all run. But that there also needs to be an instructional leader at the school. And in this case, it was the principal. And so, I asked in the middle of the session, "What do you do if your principal isn't interested in being that instructional leader?" And kind of their suggestion was, "Then it needs to be..." Well, first of all, actually, let me start. If the principal's doing that, who's managing the building? And in her case, they had the assistant principal taking on those duties, and that worked for them. But the suggestion was made that if that isn't a thing, then you sort of swap, and go ahead and let the principal do what they thought they were going to be doing and kind of manage all the things. But we need an instructional leader, so maybe that's when the assistant principal brings that... What I do want to say? It's not power from on high, but kind of the, you know like, "I'm in charge here."

Kim  03:31

(unclear).

Pam  03:31

"I'm in charge here, and this is what we do here at the school. We do this here." And without either assistant principal or principal involved in that, it just isn't going to have the oomph that we need it to have to really be able (unclear) the learning that those teachers were obviously showing.

Kim  03:50

And she said, "Unless the fire department gets called..."

Pam  03:53

Haha, yeah.

Kim  03:54

"...you do not pull me from that time." And they had four specific ways that they... You know, we'll talk about it some more. But they had four specific different things, labs, and ILTs. But she was present for almost everything. 

Pam  04:07

Yeah, so those instructional leadership teams had the principal involved and the coaches. Was there anybody else in that? Do you remember? Okay.

Kim  04:14

Notes. I'll see my notes later. 

Pam  04:15

Yeah. And we're going to read the book. And also they, like you said, they had these lab times where they were actually enacting with students and the principal was there. The principal actually did some of the teaching. And then they had their weekly team meetings that, again, were set aside. Not after school. Not when you have time. Not on your lunch period. And the principal, and the coaches, and the teachers all working together. It really seemed like a fantastic system for the way we can all treat teachers with respect, that we were all on this journey learning together. Yeah, it was really cool. 

Kim  04:50

Yeah.

Pam  04:51

Elham Kazami and her group. Really nice job. 

Kim  04:53

Yeah, we're going to have to probably maybe talk a little bit about several things.

Pam  04:58

Oh, yeah, maybe a little less about all of things. Sorry, I got kind of excited. I got excited about that one.

Both Pam and Kim  05:03

Yeah.

Kim  05:03

I mean, but I know you're excited about a lot of them and so am I. I have to tell you, though. Pam, I'm a little bit tired tonight because last night I went to the math night. Right, you had your presentation today, so you couldn't. 

Pam  05:14

Yeah, I chose not to go to the game night because the opening session. Which, let's be clear, was amazing. Oh, we're going to go there in a minute. Okay, so I actually went home to get some sleep because I presented at 8:00, and our hotel was far enough away, and we had to be here at 7:00. All the things. But you were at the game night. 

Kim  05:29

(unclear). I went, and...

Pam  05:30

I'm so jealous. 

Kim  05:31

It was very cool. And you know, we've talked about Multi before (unclear). Multi, the game. The game called Multi. Yeah.

Pam  05:38

Yeah.

Kim  05:38

(unclear). So, the creator was there. 

Pam  05:39

Oh, the creator. Nice.

Kim  05:41

Yeah, it was super fantastic. And I told him, "Listen. This, your game, I hold over Luke, my oldest. I hold over his head because he can't beat me. And he wants to play a ton, and I won't because it's going to happen, right? Like, it's... I'm not like the best ever, but we play very sporadically because.... 

Pam  06:01

You don't want him to get good enough to beat you. 

Kim  06:03

I'm... Yeah. Anyway, but he's got another game. 

Pam  06:06

Oh, he's got another game. 

Kim  06:08

Numeroso, I think is the name. And I'm going to get one.

Pam  06:11

Okay. 

Kim  06:12

And we're going to play, because I think (unclear).

Pam  06:14

You and Luke are going to play?

Kim  06:14

No, you and I are going to play.

Pam  06:15

Oh, we're going to play. Okay. Alright. 

Kim  06:17

(unclear) I don't want to unpack it a lot now, other than to say, got a new game. You're going to love it. 

Pam  06:22

Nice. 

Kim  06:23

It's got so many entry points for kids. And it's... Maybe, I'll tell you. It's about prime factorization. Ooh, interesting.

Pam  06:32

Alright, yeah, that sounds great.

Kim  06:34

(unclear) Very cool. 

Pam  06:34

Well, I'll look forward to that. You know, we are always up... We love games. Especially that have multiple entry points, multiple exit points, kind of challenge everybody, something fun to think about. But we also like games that aren't just pretend practice.

Kim  06:48

Right. 

Pam  06:48

Boring.

Kim  06:49

Right. 

Pam  06:50

Like, we like some strategy. Yeah, cool. Alright, cool. What else?

Kim  06:53

I also went to Nova Katz's session. And again, more later. But the phrase that I'm saying over and over again in my head is "patient urgency." 

Pam  07:04

Ooh.

Kim  07:04

We have to have a patient urgency about the work that we do with teachers. 

Pam  07:08

Nice.

Kim  07:09

Because the kids can't wait, but we also have to be patient as they are growing and developing. So, I just wrote giant capital letters, in her session, "PATIENT URGENCY". And I keep running that around in my head and what it looks like and sounds like to be urgent but also patient at the same time. 

Pam  07:27

Oh, I love that. Yeah, thanks for sharing. Kim. It's so fun sitting here. There are just people walking all around the discussion. And the noise. This is quite a large conference center here in Chicago. We're having a really good time. Yeah, it's just fun seeing everybody go by. Alright.

Kim  07:41

Okay, you wanted to talk about the opening session.

Pam  07:44

So, the opening session at NCTM by Dr Eugenia Cheng was unbelievable. She is funny, witty, talented in ways I didn't know. She played the piano virtually. So, she had a recording to which she then sang along to the piano. (unclear).

Kim  07:49

And talked about the mathematical patterns.

Pam  07:52

Talked about the mathematics behind it. 

Kim  07:57

She wrote

Pam  07:57

a piece of music to accompany a poem. That was beautiful. It was really cool. Yeah, I really appreciated. She kind of comes out, at least it seemed to me, in her... In this. I need to read more from her. That's on my list. Came at things from a visual perspective. So, she showed some crossover patterns with braids and talked about how that influences her graduate, the research that she's doing right now. Dr Eugenia Cheng, you did a marvelous job in the opening keynote. I'm really looking forward to digging into more of your work. Well, so I have

Kim  08:43

her book. Did I tell you? 

Pam  08:44

I don't think I knew that.

Kim  08:46

And it's on my counter. And I, you know, when I buy the things, I'm excited. And then I set it down, and I have a renewed interest in reading it (unclear)

Pam  08:56

In picking it back up. 

Kim  08:57

I just, you know... Yeah, she was brilliant.

Pam  08:59

She was just... Witty? Is that the best word? 

Kim  09:03

Yeah. Yeah, she's funny. 

Pam  09:05

Her presentation was so smooth. And yeah, really appreciate it. And while I'm there, I'll just say Kevin Dykema did a wonderful job on the opening session. Sometimes opening sessions are so whatever. Anyway, Kevin, you did a great job. We sure appreciate your leadership for NCTM.

Kim  09:20

Yeah. I don't know how much time we have, but I have a few other things that we could talk about. 

Pam  09:25

Yeah, let's do.

Kim  09:26

Okay, (unclear). Well, I'm going to just talk about your session for a second if that's okay. (unclear). 

Pam  09:30

Okay, alright, yeah. 

Kim  09:31

We're all over the place. (unclear).

Pam  09:32

NCSM or NCTM? 

Kim  09:34

This morning. 

Pam  09:35

This morning. Oh, so NCTM. (unclear).

Kim  09:36

Yeah, so I came to your session. And one of the things that I think you did really well in this session that... You know, I think there's different highlights of different presentations. But I think this session, people were able to walk away calling out that it's not about direct teaching strategies. It's about building the relationships, so that the strategies are natural outcomes.

Pam  09:59

Oh, nice.

Kim  09:59

And so, I think you did a really nice job about that because I think sometimes when you are growing up thinking about algorithms, and that's all you knew, then when you see something like these strategies that, you know, you can have a desire to want to, "Oh, I'm going to teach those very directly. I'm going to tell the kids what to do. We're going to practice them."

Pam  10:21

I mean, if that's what mathing is. "Oh, now we're going to mimic these different things."

Kim  10:24

Yeah.

Pam  10:25

Sure. 

Kim  10:25

So.

Pam  10:26

So, one of the other things that was exciting for me in that presentation. Drum roll, please is this week at NCTM, we are announcing my Corwin book, Developing Mathematical Reasoning - Avoiding the Trap of Algorithms. So, I was able to announce that during the session and talk about one of the three major traps of the algorithms. And, well, more is coming. My presentations next year will all be centered around the traps of the algorithms, and how we can not get kids trapped by algorithms, and what do we do instead, so that kids aren't trapped? I'm super excited. Thank you, Corwin, for helping me get that book on the road. It is now available for pre-order. We'll make sure that we have the link in the show notes or you can just come to the website. It'll be on the home page. Pre-order Developing Mathematical Reasoning - Avoiding the Trap of Algorithms. It's now in the editor's hands, and then they're going they're going to make it look pretty. But I really... The book cover is fantastic. They've got a big sign here at NCTM telling everybody about it. I can't wait for it to be shipped around... I think February is when it finally ships. I know it takes forever. But pre-order is open. So, I'm kind of excited about that. I was able to kind of unveil that today.

Kim  11:39

Yeah, also, is you spent some time in the "hand2mind" booth, right? 

Pam  11:39

I did, yeah. So, last week, we announced the Foundations for Strategies product, and I was able to be in the "hand2mind" booth yesterday and today telling teachers all about it. We're super excited about that. So, lots of announcements. People are like, "How are you doing all this all at once?" And Kim and I look at each other and say, "Well, we haven't really slept for a couple of years." But maybe soon.

Kim  12:03

And so, also, I wanted to say that in the "hand2mind" booth, Joe was there. Joe, the creator of Number Blocks. (unclear)

Pam  12:09

What a lovely, lovely person.

Kim  12:11

(unclear) such a joy and honor to hear that he had listened to the episode that we did about Number Blocks. That was super fun. And we were like, "Did we do it right? Did we do a good job?"

Pam  12:20

When the creator of the show says to you that he's so honored that we would do not only do an episode, but do it correctly. He said we got the math right, and that he appreciated how we actually recognized that they prioritized getting the math correct. Anyway, so yeah, Joe, we sure appreciate you and Number Blocks. We cannot recommend it enough. If you have not listened to the episode on Number Blocks, check that out. We really highly recommend it. We like what "hand2mind" is doing to support it with teacher activities. Yeah, super, super stuff.

Kim  12:53

I also went to Sue O'Connell's session. 

Pam  12:55

Oh yeah.

Kim  12:55

And she was there talking about teacher beliefs and how you teach based on the beliefs that you had when you were growing up.

Pam  13:05

Ooh.

Kim  13:06

And that was really good. But also, she had a quote from you...

Pam  13:11

Aww. 

Kim  13:11

...in her presentation. It was fantastic.

Pam  13:13

Aww.

Kim  13:14

So, it's one of the things that I have noticed in this conference at SM and now starting TM is that some really, really important thought partners are joining up and saying like (unclear). 

Pam  13:29

Supporting each other. 

Kim  13:30

There's becoming a some nice overlap. Which I think is really, really helpful for teachers because they might say like, "Oh, well, this person says this and this person says this," but there's a little bit of a... It feels like a groundswell of like coming together and noticing the similarities rather than the differences between all of you that are presenting. So, that's that's really helpful. 

Pam  13:50

So, rather than teachers having to choose from (unclear)...

Kim  13:52

Yeah. 

Pam  13:52

...sort of messages. Yeah, good people are kind of singing the same song. 

Kim  13:57

Yeah. Yeah. 

Pam  13:58

Speaking of shout outs that we appreciate. Thanks, Sue. Graham Fletcher showed the Development of Mathematical Reasoning graphic at his SM session. So, I appreciated that. Kind of gave a shout out. He mentioned... Kim, you might think/find this interesting. He thinks the biggest shift, the hardest shift. Maybe that's what he said. Graham, I'm probably quoting you incorrectly, but you can fix me. The hardest shift to help students make in that Developing Mathematical Reasoning is from additive to multiplicative. He's like that is just hard to get kids' brains to really wrap, you know, get wrapped around it, really develop their thinking, so they're thinking multiplicatively. So, I'm still thinking about that.

Kim  14:40

(unclear) because it's the reunitizing. You know...

Pam  14:43

Alright.

Kim  14:44

...all of a sudden, that's... Yeah.

Pam  14:46

Well, Kim's on your side, Graham, so there you go.

Kim  14:49

I buy it.

Pam  14:50

Yeah.

Kim  14:50

Alright, anything else? (unclear).

Pam  14:51

I really enjoy John San Giovanni's session. He's always funny. I was going to say something about it, but it's totally left my mind now. So, it was good. 

Kim  15:00

There's been a lot of funny. Like...

Pam  15:02

Yeah.

Kim  15:03

there are some really good presenters in math education. Mike Flynn was hilarious in his session too. (unclear). Oh, actually you got to hear Mike. Nice.

Pam  15:09

I did. 

Kim  15:10

Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Pam  15:12

Sorry, I keep hitting my name tag, which is like making all the noise. Sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry. I mean, not all the noise. There's lots of. All the people. All the people around. Big conference center. Yeah, so...

Kim  15:22

We have a few days left. 

Pam  15:24

We do.

Kim  15:24

It's only... Is it day one?

Pam  15:26

It is day one at NCTM. So, we've been here since... We got here Sunday late. We did NCSM all day Monday, all day Tuesday, half of Wednesday. Then we skipped over and NCTM starts. So, we did that last night. Now, we're what halfway through Thursday. 

Kim  15:41

And you're done presenting. So, (unclear).

Pam  15:42

Yeah, I get to relax a little bit. I'll go hang out in the "hand2mind" booth, and in the Corwin booth, and in the Heinemann booth. I feel like I'm a person with lots of personalities right now. But yeah. Lots of fun to try to talk to lots of people. Kim, I talk to a guy today who teaches in Beijing China.

Kim  15:59

I saw. I overheard. What was the conversation like?

Pam  16:04

Well, it was so interesting. He's a Brit who's now teaching in China. (unclear)

Kim  16:08

Oh, so he's like, Lorna, our Journey member, who's Scottish but 

Both Pam and Kim  16:12

lives in Australia. 

Pam  16:13

Yes, exactly that. Yeah. He was really, really interested in talking about the way that different countries, different regions talk about things and how it can actually be tricky to know really what the conversation is about. So, he said... Like, here's an example. I asked him for an example, and he said there was a lot of sort of negative talking about tracking at NCSM. And he, to him, tracking meant that you gather data and you use that to inform your instruction. 

Kim  16:45

Oh.

Pam  16:45

I know. And he couldn't figure out why we were down on that. 

Kim  16:48

Oh, my gosh.

Pam  16:49

And so, when he realized what we meant. So, you know, I just think, Kim, you and I can take that and maybe take it to heart even more than we have that there's so much in the communication. And we have to define terms.

Kim  17:03

Right.

Pam  17:03

Like, we have to get down and dirty and really like what are we talking about, so we can determine, you know, if we agree disagree. But before that even. What do we mean? And I think more than agree and disagree, let's understand each other. Like, let's really get underneath the words and the fluff. In fact, Kim, one of the things that you and I were laughing about is... Okay, can I laugh about this on the podcast? I think I can. Okay, we'll cut this if we can't. I think we can. That a lot of the session titles and the session descriptions were the key words that were the strands and everything. Because, for some reason... And maybe organizers of conferences, I don't know how you hear my message here. But the message is being delivered that if the session description and title use the words that you've used in the strand, then you get your session accepted and now you can speak at the event. When, in reality, like everybody's... The point I'm bringing up is less to dog. Thank you, all of you, who have given you your time. I recognize it's a volunteer position. We appreciate you doing the conferences. But it's also this tricky business where we're kind of using these words. What do they mean? We've just got all these buzzwords kind of floating around. And sometimes I'll go to a session that had a fantastic description, and then when the rubber hits the road and I see the math they're doing, I'm like, "Ah, okay." And that's good. Like, now I know. But it's super important that we know. Like, let's actually... Maybe I'm just going to encourage us to really define what we mean. Give examples. Get particular about it, so that we can all know what each other mean. I think it's the only way we can move the conversation forward.

Kim  18:42

Yeah, I was going to say too that sometimes sessions may have looked like they were saying the same things because the titles were similar. 

Pam  18:51

Oh, yeah. 

Kim  18:51

And so that...

Pam  18:52

And even the description sometimes was similar.

Kim  18:54

(unclear). that can make it hard. But yeah.

Pam  18:57

Yeah. Hey, I know that I had to go to... I don't even remember where I had to go. I had to go somewhere, and I was not able. Was I presenting when Rachel Lambert was presenting? Anyway.

Kim  19:08

Yeah, I think so.

Pam  19:09

Yeah, so you went to hear her, right? And so I unfortunately. Dr. Rachel Lambert, I really respect. She and I have known each other for quite a while now. And she's doing some amazing work. Her book Rethinking Disability in Mathematics is so good. And we really appreciate what she's helping us all, giving us language to talk about disability. But maybe for me, more importantly, giving us the research, helping us understand the research out there. There's kind of a clamor right now from some corners about evidence based this and research based that. And they're using... They're being very, very particular about the kind of evidence they're calling good and the kind of research they're saying is kind of the gold standard. And Rachel and others are pushing back on that and saying, "Um, I'm not sure that's a fair..." Well, in fact, I think we're sure that's not a fair way to approach, kind of ignoring all these other really good pieces of research and sort of searching for the ones that you think kind of proves your point. And so, she's really helping a lot of us be able to use research in a way that supports the teaching and learning of real math. And that's what we're all about. 

Kim  20:24

Yeah, her session was fantastic. Speaking of funny, she also was quite entertaining. And her session was a little bit like, you know... I don't want to say unfiltered because that wasn't it. But just, you know, real. Like, just, "Like, I'm going to tell you what I know and what I'm still learning. And I'm not the expert. You know, we all need to know this kind of stuff."

Pam  20:42

We're all learning together.

Kim  20:43

And she shared some of the research. And I actually saw her later and like pushed her a little bit like, "Make sure that you put what you can out in a way that we could read." Because, you know, somebody like me who I'm not spending a lot of my time in research the way that she is, but I still want to know (unclear). I have like a responsibility to know what people are saying that is not true. Right? Like, she at one point said, "You know, it was on the internet, so it was true." And, you know, she's being coy about that and like a little tongue in cheek. But she also talked about ways people are picking out a line in a research paper, and then blowing that up to be the research. And she talked about the utter disrespect it is to the researcher who did that work to then turn and twist. So, I'm looking forward to getting some, some fingers on some of the research that she said that she would put together. So, yeah.

Pam  20:43

Yeah, nice. Yeah, that actually reminds me of when there was a citation from a group that I was trying to kind of figure out what they meant. And I read the citation, and it was exactly that. They had pulled one line, and it wasn't the intent of the article. It wasn't the overarching message of the research. Was not what they pulled out. But they pulled out a like almost half of a line and kind of went with that. And it's disingenuous. And we deserve better. As an educational community, we... Yeah, so we really grateful for Dr. Lambert for bringing that forward for everybody.

Kim  22:23

Yeah.

Pam  22:23

What a great time. Kim, who are you looking forward to hearing at NCTM? Anybody still on your list?

Kim  22:28

Yes. That's the problem is there's so many people that I want to see. And, you know, it's such a big conference. I think they said there were nearly 800 sessions. 800 sessions.

Pam  22:36

Wow. 

Kim  22:37

Like, how do you sift through? So. 

Pam  22:40

In two short days. 

Kim  22:41

Yeah. (unclear)

Pam  22:41

Yeah. 

Kim  22:42

I have like four or five in each time period.

Pam  22:44

I ran into Dan Meyer. Unfortunately,

Kim  22:46

I had to miss this session because... Let's see what was my good reason? Oh yeah, I was presenting. But I ran into him a little bit later, and I was able to tell him congratulations for the major award that he just won. I'm going to admit at the moment, it's... Ya'll, we have no notes here. We're just talking in my phone. So, Dan, congratulations. Super job, and well chosen. Yeah.

Pam  23:04

Yeah.

Kim  23:05

And do you have any sessions that you're looking forward to? 

Pam  23:08

You know, I got to be honest with you, I kind of made it to my session this morning, and now I'm going to go look. So, there's a break for lunch right about now, and so we've got a minute to go look at the program book and kind of check everybody out. Oh, I will say there is a group of professors from Brigham Young University. I have heard them before, and they are doing some very thoughtful, detailed research into the moves that teachers make. And I think what's interesting... There's a couple things about their research that fascinate.... Well, there's things that fascinate with other research, but one reason I think maybe why their research is a little less well known, a little not as widely distributed is because they assume... Not in a bad way. But they assume that teachers know the math are teaching with good tasks, and so now they can get at those moves.

Kim  24:00

Right.

Pam  24:01

These moves won't mean much to someone who thinks that math is about rote memorizing and mimicking.

Kim  24:07

Right, right, right.

Pam  24:08

That there's the subtlety of these important ways that they're looking at teaching only kind of matter when we're actually teaching real math.

Kim  24:17

Right.

Pam  24:18

But yeah, I'm excited to go hear them.

Kim  24:19

Yeah, so that's important why it's the "How" and the "What".

Pam  24:23

Yes. How we have to get at the "How" and the "What". So, Dr. Blake and Dr. Keith Latham, we're excited to come hear you. I know Kourtney has some connection with Dr. Latham from a while back. And so, yeah. Kourtney Peters is here with us. We should have. Hey, Kourtney. We should have Kourtney say hi. Kourtney works with us on the team at Math is Figure-Out-Able. Say hi, Kourtney.

Kourtney  24:42

Hi. 

Pam  24:43

So, super glad to have her here. And yeah. 

Kim  24:46

So, I don't know how long this has gone on, but I ran into Ron. He was... We met last year at NCSM or TM, and then I saw him again this year.

Pam  24:53

Oh, nice.

Kim  24:54

And I said, "Hey, what's a..." He said he was a podcast listener, and I said, "What's a good length?" And he said, "Well, my commute is exactly 30 minutes, so I need a 30 minute episode." So, I don't know where we're at right now, but Ron, we'll do our best to be right at about 30 minutes. And also, I ran into Aaron multiple times. She, like all the time, she was everywhere that I went, and that was fun. So, I'm happy to meet listeners wherever we can. Super fun.

Pam  25:18

Yeah. So, podcast listeners, we know we are privileged that we're able to be here, that we have the opportunity to take advantage of this kind of incredible professional development, and so we are committed to try to bring it back to you the best that we can. I know tonight... Or today. Tonight. This evening. What time of the day is it, Kim. I don't even know.

Kim  25:36

I have no idea. 

Pam  25:36

On this episode, we've only been able to go into a little bit of the things that we've learned, but we will be putting things together in a more coherent fashion to give you as much as we can to keep spreading the word that Math is Figure-Out-Able. Ya'll, thank you for joining us. Thank you for joining us on our journey. And we are honored that you join us as we try to revolutionize the way we teach math. Alright, Kim, let's go listen to some more sessions. 

Kim  26:02

Yeah.

Pam  26:02

Alright, cheers!