Pam  00:00

Hey, fellow mathers, welcome to the podcast where Math is Figure-Out-Able. I'm Pam Harris, a former mimicker turned mather.

Kim  00:09

And I'm Kim Montague, a reasoner who now knows how to share her thinking with others. At Math is Figure-Out-Able, we are on a mission to improve math teaching. 

Pam  00:18

We know that algorithms are amazing human achievements, but they're really not very good teaching tools because they're really not very good... Really? I think I said "really" four times in that sentence. Because mimicking step-by-step procedures can actually trap students into using less sophisticated reasoning than the problems are intended to develop.

Kim  00:35

In this podcast, we help you teach, mathing, building relationships with your students, and grappling with mathematical relationships. 

Pam  00:42

We invite you to join us to make math more really figure-out-able.

Kim  00:45

Really, is it more than just figure-out-able? 

Pam  00:48

I mean, really. It's just like "really" is on my mind today for some reason. Hey, Kim.

Kim  00:53

Yeah, hi. (unclear).

Pam  00:54

Hey, it was kind of fun to see you. 

Kim  00:55

I know! 

Pam  00:56

We actually got to hang in person. 

Kim  00:58

People probably think we see each other in person more than we do.

Pam  01:02

Yeah. 

Kim  01:02

Which is not true. I mean, it's very rare these days. 

Pam  01:05

I know, crazy. But it was super fun. 

Kim  01:07

Does Zoom count? I see you every day on Zoom. 

Pam  01:10

No, so that's not in person. That's the definition of not in person. Zoom. Yeah, so we actually got to hang out together because we had the opportunity to... What did they call that? A preview? Not a preview showing. 

Kim  01:23

It's like a special showing. It's like a screening. It was a screening. (unclear).

Pam  01:27

There we go. It was a screening of the documentary called Counted Out. 

Kim  01:33

Yeah.

Pam  01:33

Thank you, Dana Center, for putting it on here in the Austin area. And we were able to score some tickets. And, yeah, it was fantastic. We got to drive all the way through Austin traffic. 

Kim  01:42

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Pam  01:44

Which meant we get to talk a lot because we talked all the way up and all the way back. 

Kim  01:47

I don't know how I first heard about it. It was... I mean, it's been a long time. I know it's been out for a couple years now, but I heard about it randomly or I saw a thing, and I was like, "Oh, I'm want to see this!" And I've watched the preview several times, and I've heard people talk about it. But they don't have very many screenings, so it was kind of kind of cool (unclear). Yeah. 

Pam  02:07

Yeah, I appreciate you kind of pushing that and getting us there. Lots of good people in the film. We love Dan Finkel, Math for Love. Super Well spoken. He did a great job. 

Kim  02:16

Yeah. 

Pam  02:16

Karim Ani, who I hope I didn't slaughter your name. I really appreciate the way that he writes the tasks that he does. I think they're so... He does such a good job of (unclear).

Kim  02:29

You talked about him for a while.

Pam  02:30

Yeah, coming at an issue from both sides and using mathematics to suggest that we can actually have a much better conversation if we come at these really difficult, subtle issues from both sides with mathematics. So, I think it does a really good job with that. Jo Boaler was on there. Eugenia Chang, who I think is funny. And yeah, I really enjoy listening to her as well. And Bob Moses, who was a pioneer in helping us think differently about teaching Algebra. I was heavily influenced by his work when I began teaching his Algebra project, and how he really talked about how Algebra is a gatekeeper, and we could really use it to help kind of erase the gate. Yeah, he had some amazing work. And it was really amazing to hear from him on the film. Yeah.

Kim  03:18

Yeah. So, we got to see... 

Pam  03:20

Among others. There were others. Those are... 

Kim  03:21

Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Pam  03:22

Yeah.

Kim  03:23

And it was fun because we got to see some of those people you mentioned interact with students. So, they're putting their practice in action. And just to have them reflect on the journey that they've been on and why they do what they do has been really cool. So, let's talk. You know, I don't want to steal too much from the documentary because I really do hope that people push to get to go see it. Should be seen by all. But let's talk a little bit about the content of the movie. So, don't give too much away. But I'm going to start. And I found it fascinating that one of the things they did... You know, I love statistics. And so, they shared a bunch of statistics. And they also talked a lot about algorithms, and the role that algorithms play in ways that we're not aware of, and in some of the choices that are being made for people's lives. And so, they talked about gerrymandering, and they talked about... I can't remember the percent. I should know this. But a portion of... I think he said 75%.

Pam  04:23

I think it was 75%. Yeah.

Kim  04:25

Of college entrance choices are made by an algorithm. Or at least the first look at them. And I find that interesting that... You know, I went to college a minute ago. And like the idea that human eyes are reading the essays and getting a feel for the student. When you say 75% of the entrance is chosen by... Yeah, the decisions made by an algorithm that really matters every word you say, every thing you click, every... Probably more so than ever because you can't get a good feel for the person. They also shared a story of a man. I can't remember his name. I'm going to get the word wrong. Recidivism. Recidivism rates and how an algorithm helps determine whether they get on parole or not, whether they're paroled. And there's all these different factors that play. And what it doesn't do necessarily...based on, you know, what I heard...is that it doesn't take into account some of the things that they do and the changes they've made as a person. A lot of it is based on the age that you went to jail and like you're...

Pam  04:39

Well, and Just a few years ago. I think he was even suggesting that... Sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt.

Kim  05:36

No, go ahead. Yeah. There's all of these factors that play, but may not still play in your life at the time that you are

Pam and Kim  05:54

coming up for parole. 

Pam  05:56

And I think part of the main point of the film was that we don't actually know what is going into the algorithm because it was a proprietary process that they had purchased it from an outside company, and so they couldn't actually even tell you what the algorithm was, that it was figuring out that he got denied parole. Who gets denied and why? And... 

Kim  05:56

Yeah. Yeah. 

Pam  06:16

Yeah, and I think that's part of... Well, I'll talk about a little bit later. Yeah. 

Kim  06:20

Yeah, so if you don't know what's going into it, and you can't do anything to work on it, then a decision is being made about the rest of your life... 

Pam  06:30

Yeah.

Kim  06:31

...that really doesn't look at you as a person. So, I found... You know, they gave a couple of examples. I found his story very interesting. Yeah. I'm still thinking about it. 

Pam  06:40

Let me pop in another story. And this one kind of... Both the gentleman up for parole, and then there was also a gal who told her story, and they were kind of throughout the documentary. And her story starts where her daughter, I think, is struggling in school, and how it really hit her, and it brought back memories for her when she was a student of being called dumb and stupid and not being fast enough and being put in different groups and classes, and being cut off from higher math because of she couldn't get it fast enough or get it well enough, or whatever. And then throughout the movie, you see that her story gets added on to and how she wanted to go into the medical profession, I think, to help her dad, who was ill.  (unclear).

Kim  07:21

She wanted to take care of her dad. Yeah.

Pam  07:23

Take care of her dad. But in order to do that, she had to get all this training. And she decided, "Well, the only thing that I can kind of do because I can't do the math." And so, she became, I think, a medical assistant. But she really wanted to be a nurse. And so, then, I think, she said she tried four times... 

Kim  07:38

Yeah.

Pam  07:38

...to get through community college enough. And it was the math that kept holding her back right.

Kim  07:43

Right.

Pam  07:43

And again, the documentary goes on, but you keep hearing the story. And finally, she says the fourth time she had a university professor that really helped the light turn on, and really cared about her as a person, and kind of helped her figure out she could do math. And it was like, "Wait, I can do that!" And she was able to then get her degree. And then they, they move on. She not only got her degree, but then she was getting her masters. I mean, obviously this woman was driven, but she had this one opportunity to change the course of her life. Well, maybe in two ways early on to say, "Nope, can't do the math. Nope. Nope. Nope." And then later to have this one university professor that just was able to turn everything on a dime and help her do what she wanted to do, help her achieve her goals. 

Kim  08:29

Yeah. We 100% gave every spoiler in the world. And so (unclear).

Pam  08:33

Oh, shoot. Did we tell too much?

Kim  08:35

Probably both did. 

Pam  08:37

Sorry.

Kim  08:38

It's okay. We'll put a little thing. But you know what? When you were just talking about that, I was struck again by what I was thinking about then is that what kind of a person is she? What stamina? What perseverance to try a fourth time?

Pam  08:55

Dr India White grit. (unclear). 

Kim  08:56

I mean, seriously.

Pam and Kim  08:58

Yeah.

Kim  08:59

Like, people, at some point, are like, "I guess that's just who I am." And that the determination she had. And so, at the fourth time, she found the right professor. And it's unfortunate that it took those circumstances. And I think we can do better. I think we cannot make it be your fourth time, and you had to like muscle up your way to just find the right person.

Pam  09:23

Yeah. 

Kim  09:24

Yeah. 

Pam  09:24

And that's sort of the gig we're in, right? How can we help teachers? Because we all want to do right by our students. 

Kim  09:30

Yeah. 

Pam  09:31

How can we help us all do it just a little bit better?  A little bit better. Alright, Kim, what was your... Without giving more spoilers maybe? I don't know if that's possible.

Kim  09:34

Yeah. Oh, gosh. I don't know.

Pam  09:40

I mean, it was a long movie. We didn't give away it all. Those are just two stories. It's okay, Kim. We're good. What was your biggest takeaway? If you had to like walk out, and somebody said, "Hey, what was that all about?" What was your biggest takeaway? 

Kim  09:50

Well, it was relating to the conversation that we had on the way home. We immediately got in separate cars and called each other to talk. And I remember you said something about, "This is great." Like, if you watch this and you already believe kind of what you and I believe about change and about the way math classes should run. Like, how does that help? 

Pam  10:17

How does this movie help?

Kim  10:18

How does this movie help. Right. How does the documentary help anyone?  And I think I said something like it's about awareness. That if more people had the opportunity to see this kind of documentary, first of all, they would be aware that our world has more math than they realize, and that choices are being made based on that. It also... Beyond just creating awareness this documentary, invites you to say, "Okay, now what? Like, what do we do about it?" And even if people don't have the answer, if more people, parents, like any stakeholder, kids. If anyone said, "Wait a second. Like, we've got to do something about the fact that so many people in America, across the world, are math illiterate, enumerate, we need to make some sort of massive change. Like, I think there are a handful of people, a small percentage of the population, who are saying that, but not enough to make lasting change. And so, I think this, as an awareness campaign, is super important. We also then took the conversation to start saying things like once beliefs are shift, then impactful change can happen. But typically, what happens is some people say, "This is what needs change. Now, go do this," and they and they try to tell people, "Do it this way. Do it that way." And, you know, I try really hard to be careful about that. And I know I don't always do it well. But it starts with shifting beliefs and creating awareness, so that people are all in on the change that needs to be happening. So, we talk a lot about shifts that need to happen in schools, in districts, in classrooms based on the standards that were already being handed. Like, a state will say, "These are the things that you need to be teaching at this grade level." And then we do a lot of work to say, "How do we do that well?" But there's also a lot of people who are doing work saying, "But that's not what math class even has to be about," that there are other areas of math and there's other...

Pam  10:20

Yeah. Pathways. 

Kim  10:42

Yeah, there's more math than even what we say are the standards that happen in a grade level. And I think that both kinds of shifts need to happen, that we open up our math classes to say it's not just about addition, subtraction, fractions. But we can also do that work better. We can do the work that is already a part of the standards that we're supposed to be doing currently even better than what we're doing.

Pam  12:54

Yeah, like what does it actually mean to reason about the things in those standards the way mathy people reason about them? Not just figure out ooh, how do we rote, memorize and mimic this stuff? 

Kim  13:05

Yeah.

Pam  13:06

Because that's not mathing at all. 

Pam and Kim  13:08

Yeah. 

Pam  13:08

Nice. Yeah, interesting. One of the things that you were talking about the idea of people really understanding, first, the issue, I think, is super important. And I think part of your point is we need to help people be just be aware that this is an issue. And I wonder if I would add into that, maybe there's somebody out there that could see... Maybe the the gals story I told. I can't remember her name. Who eventually became the nurse and was getting her masters. That maybe they could go, "Huh. Maybe I could pursue my dream. Maybe I can. Maybe I can do math too. Maybe there's some help I could get, and I could go and do what I actually wanted to do and not let my previous experience in fake math affect eliminating my dreams." Hopefully that would be... Yes?

Kim  13:55

Somebody in our teacher Facebook group. Oh, gosh, I'm going to not remember her name. Somebody in our teacher Facebook who just made a comment recently and said... I posted something about what is a picture or a phrase that's causing you to have like hope for the future of education. 

Pam  14:18

Oh, okay.

Kim  14:18

And a lot of people have comments, and one person said something about how she was a Special Education teacher and failed college math four times. And it was just like, "Oh, my gosh. Here's another example just like this lady in the documentary." Like we have people who are just keeping at it, keeping at it, keeping at it, and then they have the experience of making math meaningful for students and for people around them, and helping them understand that it's not like a one and done. Like, you can understand. Math is Figure-Out-Able.

Pam  14:52

Yeah, Math is Figure-Out-Able Nice. (unclear). 

Kim  14:55

Okay, what's yours? What do you what takeaway do you have?

Pam  14:57

Yeah, so I think there was a lot. But a lot of times people will say, "Ah, I don't really use math. I'm not good at math. I didn't do math. I don't really use math in my real life. I don't see math around me. It's not whatever." Part of one of the points of the documentary was math is everywhere. And I believe it was Ben Blum-Smith who said, "I'm not just saying that in a way where your teacher goes, Math is everywhere. But I actually mean, whether you see it or not, there are a lot of choices in your life, decisions in your life, that are being made based on mathematics that you might not even acknowledge or realize that are happening." And so, for example, like social media algorithms, we know because we work a little bit with Facebook marketing a little bit. We know that there are ways that if you click on something, you can be tracked by people from Facebook on other websites. And so, you might not even realize that the ads that are showing up for you on Facebook, or Instagram, or pick your social media channel are actually being targeted to you because of things that you're clicking on in the app but also out of the app. Depending on the kinds of cookies that you've left and the permissions that you've given websites and everything, your history of where you click is more out there than you might know, And therefore, the news that you get fed could very well be hyper-influenced because there are algorithms out there that are tracking what you're looking at. And so, we actually have gotten to a place where a lot of people could be only seeing... Especially if they're only getting their news on social media. They could only be seeing certain take, a certain take on the news. I was just speaking with several people when I was in Europe about politics. And it was very fascinating to me that as we would share kind of quote, unquote "facts" that we knew, they would say, "No, no, no. It was this way." And I would say, you know, "What news outlet are you listening to?" And they would say, "Well, you know, the news.  Yeah. 

Pam and Kim  17:04

The news.

Pam  17:05

Yeah, and so if you don't realize that those algorithms could be what... Not could be. They're impacting the kinds of things that are showing up in your feed. That impacts what you do. You mentioned earlier, gerrymandering. So, how do we set up voting districts? It's all based on mathematics. There was a Supreme Court case that the movie mentions that had some things to do with mathematics. And how the justices handled the math was a little bit troubling. Lots of different traffic patterns. So, my father-in-law actually dealt with a signal. So, like when the traffic signal goes on and off and how those are timed. I read a novel not too long ago. It was a YA novel. It was kind of interesting. People were using an app on their device that would do things like many of us use today for GPS. It tells you the route to take. This particular app would do things like tell you the route to take, and the time to leave, and the food to eat. And it was all... You you would sort of downloaded your genetic information, everything, and it would give you the best way to do things. Well, of course, in the in the novel, you know, nefarious people took over the algorithms, and so it was leading people to do things not because it was in the people's best interest, but because it was in some other, you know, foreign entities best interest. And it was this whole nefarious thing where they had to take down the computers at the end. The point is, what happens in your life that right now is being controlled by mathematics. Like, all behind this technology is mathematics, not to mention AI, and the large language models, and the things that are happening with things like ChatGPT. Everything behind that is mathematics. And I really appreciated at one point Ben Blum-Smith said something like... I'm not going to quote you exactly, Ben. Sorry. I'm going to get it as best I can. But he said, "I really want you to be able to not get taken advantage of because you don't know the math." When someone says, "Oh, you don't need to worry about that. There's math behind it. Don't worry about it," he wants to be able to go, "I could hang with you. Like, tell me the math. Like, I want to get involved and understand what's happening," because you're not then just letting other people, through those algorithms, make decisions for you. You have the confidence that you're not going to be taken advantage of because you don't know the math. And I thought that was just a really interesting thing for us to all consider how much. Even if we don't think we do math every day, there's a lot of mathematics that's influencing our lives. 

Kim  19:30

Yeah, and we want that for other people, and we hope that they want them for themselves, right? That they go, "Like this is achievable. I can know enough, and I can hang with the conversation that I'm not counted out." Right? Like, that was the whole point is I'm not counted out of the conversation because I don't have enough math. And I think that, you know, kind of dovetails with what we want, that we support students who understand math and who have experiences even at a very young age that help them be a part of the conversation. And, you know, we have some people in our implementation support who work with adults who were left out of the conversation in elementary, middle, high school, but they want to be a part of it. And they are doing fantastic work with adults who need to become more numerate. And are, you know, putting in the effort, and they have great teachers, and they're making things happen.

Pam  20:24

Yeah, we really appreciate those we work with who work with adult learners. We love all the teachers we work with. Those who work with adult learners, I think have a special (unclear).

Kim  20:33

Yeah, for sure. 

Pam  20:34

Yeah. Yeah, It was kind of fun at the end, one of the things was that the Dana Center then asked some questions, some discussion questions. We actually got to chat with a university freshman who was there. She gave us permission to talk a little bit about what she shared with us. We kind of asked her about her experience. And she said she actually had a horrible experience in with mathematics all throughout school, except one teacher. And one teacher had really made a difference. We asked her for an example of the horrible, and she said that she had a sixth grade... Well, I think it all started maybe in sixth grade. 

Kim  21:07

Yeah, yeah.

Pam  21:08

When the year started with not a good teacher who then left, and then she had a substitute for several months who then left, and then she had a new teacher come in who was terrible and talked about money the whole time. Not like money in a helpful way, but like in a weird kind of, "I have money" kind of way. Anyway, some weird thing. And she's like, "Yeah, then I just sort of didn't learn anything that year, and it was kind of bad from there." Except one teacher who really made a difference because that teacher knew the math and was really passionate about it.  Drudgery. 

Kim  21:37

Yeah. Yeah, you know, I think that we are passionate about math. Like, we talk about it with excitement. We are interested. And, you know, I think that I often think about the classrooms that I get to visit. It's one of my favorite things that I get to do is visit classrooms. And there's just a difference between a teacher who's excited about their subject and a teacher who's like, "Okay, I have to do the thing." It's creates a different tone. It creates a different feeling. And I'm not saying you have to like pick math as your number one hobby, but the more that you know about your content, the more excited you can be, the more it doesn't feel daunting, it doesn't feel like this is so hard. Yeah. I mean, and if you start off not loving your subject, but then you have to do the subject, and you bump into some difficulty along the way, it just like that comes out.

Pam  22:28

Well, and maybe I could suggest if anybody's listening right now going, "Yeah, it really isn't my hobby, and it's not my favorite thing. I'm not sure I have passion about it." Let me suggest a passion that you probably do have that you could pull out and make shine during your math time. I bet you could be very passionate about knowing how your students are thinking. I bet you could be super passionate about your interest in knowing how they're reasoning about stuff, how they're thinking, and reasoning, and using relationships. I bet you could get your psyche wrapped around, "Ooh. Like, how are you thinking about that?" And then like really being super interested in how your students are thinking.  That's a great place to start. 

Kim  23:09

And I would bet that there's some passion that happened early on for students and for teachers that was maybe killed by the traditional pathway that we take. That it's, you know, stand up there, and say the things, and kids practice it. There's like not a lot to be passionate about there maybe. That when you are interested in your students thinking, and like you see that growth, and you engage in conversation. One of the things that I loved was that they had this... I don't think it was a passion project that these students did. They had a couple of weeks. The kids got to ask a question, any question under the sun. And one kid... I'm not going to say what it was, but one kid had a very interesting off the wall.

Pam  23:51

Are you sure? (unclear).

Kim  23:52

No! We need to stop telling all the details. Very, very interesting, funny, hilarious question. And then they were set forth to answer the question. And these kids were like, first of all, had to think about what the question would be, and what do I need to find out to answer the question mathematically, and like how do I go about finding out the answer? Yeah, and so they did all this work, and then they presented their findings and all the math that they use. And, you know, my personal kid is doing a passion project in one of his classes right now, and they just spend a little bit of time working on that kind of all throughout the year. And he lights up. He's like a different kid when he talks about his passion project because he got to have all the choices. 

Pam  24:33

Nice. 

Kim  24:33

It's really cool, yeah. I would love to dive on that if I were in the classroom right now. 

Pam  24:39

Super cool. 

Kim  24:40

Yeah. Okay, so I think we've probably spoiled all the things. (unclear)

Pam  24:45

(unclear). We told you parts of... It's definitely worth. There's a whole lot more. 

Kim  24:51

Oh, 100%, yeah. There's a ton, ton. I mean, it was like at least an hour and forty minutes, right? 

Pam  24:56

And for sure, be listening for this kid's passion project because you'll crack up about the question that he answered.

Kim  25:02

So, I'm just like super excited that this documentary was created. I hope it is widespread and lots of people get to see it because there's really such a need to create this awareness. And these really, really good people that you mentioned, like obviously did a lot of work to be...

Pam  25:21

Make it a good thing. 

Kim  25:21

To make it a good thing and help inform people. And you mentioned before, but I'm going to mention again that one of the people who advised and did work on this project was Jo Boaler.

Pam  25:30

Yeah, and we are super excited that Jo has accepted our invitation to be our guest on our upcoming Math is Figure-Out-Able challenge. You are not going to want to miss this. I am thrilled that we're going to be able to have her on, and share with us some of the new work that she's been doing, and her new book, Math-ish. And we're going to chat about all the things. Super, super excited. Ya'll, if you have not been involved in one of our challenges, just get on the website, find out when we're doing the next challenge. But if you're listening when this podcast drops, it's happening soon, at the end of January, so make sure that you get a part of that. 

Kim  26:06

I think registration is actually opening today. (unclear).

Pam  26:10

Yeah, when the podcast drops, it's going to be opening. Alright, well, there you go. Yeah. So, hey, get involved in the Math is Figure-Out-Able challenge. I can't tell you, Kim, as I travel around, one of the most often things that I hear is people will say, "Yeah, yeah, I took your challenge and it was so great!" And that is a super good way for you to learn more, get re-energized or keep your energy up. We love it, and we're super excited that Jo is going to be one of our guests on the upcoming challenge.

Kim  26:36

Exciting. 

Pam  26:37

Alright, ya'll, thanks for tuning in and teaching more and more real math. To find out more about the Math is Figure-Out-Able movement, visit mathisfigureoutable.com. Let's keep spreading the word that Math is Figure-Out-Able!