Pam  00:01

Hey, fellow mathers! Welcome to the podcast where Math is Figure-Out-Able! I'm Pam Harris, a former mimicker turned mather.

Kim  00:09

And I'm Kim Montague, a reasoner who now knows how to share her thinking with others. At Math is Figure-Out-Able, we are on a mission to improve math teaching.

Pam  00:18

We know that algorithms are amazing human achievements, but they are not good teaching tools because mimicking step-by-step procedures can actually trap students into using less sophisticated reasoning than the problems are intended to develop.

Kim  00:32

In this podcast, we help you teach mathing, building relationships with your students, and grappling with mathematical relationships.

Pam  00:39

And we invite you to join us to make math more figure-out-able! Hey, Kim, I have to tell you. So, I was just recently at the NCTM spring conference. And I don't know when this episode is going to drop, but anyway, I was just there. And a bunch of people came up to me. You know, we were just chatting, and shaking hands, and signing books, and stuff. And one of the gals goes, "Hey, can you do the intro to the podcast from memory? And I was like, "Um, I don't know." And she started it! And then we just kind of went like back and forth. At one point, you know, I was like, "I'm Pam!" She goes, "And I'm Kim!" I was like, "You're not..." Anyway, it was just funny. (unclear)

Kim  01:18

That's so funny. 

Pam  01:19

Yeah, it was super cute.

Kim  01:20

I would not be able to do that.

Pam  01:22

Kind of fun. 

Kim  01:23

Yeah.

Pam  01:23

It's really fun these days. Almost everywhere I go and do a presentation, when I get to the part where I say, "And I believe that Math is..." And I'll kind of pause a little bit. And then just a ton of people come back with "Figure-Out-Able!"

Kim  01:36

That's so great. 

Pam  01:37

Yeah, it's really fun. Really fun.

Kim  01:39

Super fun. We had to tell ourselves to get started recording today because I haven't talked to you for a few days, so... 

Pam  01:46

All the things to talk about! 

Kim  01:48

I know, I know. Okay, well, we're going to dive in. But I found this really great review. You know, I love to read them. 

Pam  01:54

Oh, fun!

Kim  01:55

But I found this one that I think you'll really enjoy. It's from Mrs. Wickbolt. And it's been a while. I was hanging on to it. But Mrs. Wickbolt said, "I first heard the name Pam Harris when I was scheduled to attend her PD session at the Wisconsin Green Lake math conference in May of 2020." So, that's been a while.

Pam  02:14

Okay.

Kim  02:14

"Since that didn't happen..." Right, Covid time. "...I had to do my own research to find out who Pam was. Needless to say, I found this podcast, and I've been a loyal listener ever since. I'm a K-8 certified elementary teacher who spent 20 years teaching middle school math and also taught most of the other younger grades before becoming an educational math consultant serving 39 school districts in Wisconsin." That's a lot of support. Yeah. "I retired in 2021 with 40 years of teaching experience, but I still support one school district as a math coach. I'm passionate about math, and often quote Pam during my coaching sessions. Thanks for helping teachers to make sense of math and how to teach it more effectively."

Pam  02:15

Yeah.  Aww, wow! 

Kim  02:57

Thank you. 

Pam  02:58

That's awesome. Yeah.

Kim  02:59

That's fantastic. 

Pam  03:00

You know, it's fun to hear from brand new teachers, but there's something about hearing from veterans that recognize what we're doing. 

Kim  03:09

Yeah.

Pam  03:10

And go, "This! Like, this is what we've been searching for! This! This!"

Kim  03:12

Yeah. That's super cool. 

Pam  03:13

That's really cool. Nice. Thanks for sharing that. Sweet!

Kim  03:16

(unclear) absolutely.  Okay, so today, speaking of PD and the work that teachers are doing, we are going to chat about something that you know extremely well because it's been what you've done for the last 20 or so years. 

Pam  03:28

Yeah.

Kim  03:28

And that is professional development.

Pam  03:32

And sometimes people call it professional learning. I don't know what the difference is.

Pam and Kim  03:37

Yeah. 

Kim  03:38

I think it's just different phrases.  So, let's talk for just a second because sometimes we have professional development that is chosen by a school or a district.

Pam  03:43

Yeah. Mmhm. 

Kim  03:50

And maybe it's in like a professional learning community with a smaller group of people where you get a voice, but often it's chosen for you, right? Like, if you're you're a teacher in a school, then maybe the principal chooses it, or a committee chooses it, or maybe you have a beginning of the year district training that's mandated.

Pam  04:08

Mmhm.

Kim  04:08

And often, that is like a really broad training, so that it fits a lot of people because maybe they only get a few opportunities. So, I'm thinking back, you know, when I would go to a district training, it might be like a half day a couple times a year.

Pam  04:22

Mmhm. 

Kim  04:22

And often, that was something that fit, you know, teachers with very little experience, teachers with years and years of experience, different grade levels. And while there are some things that are effective that way, you know, you have to find yourself in that kind of training.

Pam  04:40

Mmhm. Because it's so broad, right? 

Kim  04:42

Yeah.

Pam  04:42

They're trying to reach everybody.

Kim  04:43

Yeah. And I'm not dinging like schools or districts for doing that. It's just what they can do, right? They try to keep things pretty broad. Or you might have some sort of professional development where you like find this great book, and you are looking for a partner to read it with you. I mean, you and I both have stacks of books. I've just ordered another one. I'm not even done with the four I'm reading. And you might do some professional development with a partner, where you read it together, and you hope to reflect together, or maybe you have an opportunity to get to learn something deeply, like in our math is figure out workshops. But not always, right? So, there's lots of different ways that that can happen.

Pam  04:56

Mmhm. 

Kim  05:16

But not always. But what's really amazing is that there are also some opportunities that teachers get to have live, bite sized PD online, and those are amazing.

Pam  05:34

And they can be, right? Like, we do our challenges and webinars. We do them from us, where we put them on for Math is Figure-Out-Able.

Kim  05:41

Yeah. 

Pam  05:42

I've also done a ton of webinars lately with other thought partners like Hand to Mind, and Corwin, Forefront. A guy we did exemplars not too long ago. You know, just great people that are doing good stuff that we get a chance to kind of combine with them and bring little bits of learning to the world.

Kim  05:59

Mmhm. And those tend to be like a one topic, one time. The ones that you've described. Challenges are interesting because we do them over the course of several days, and that's kind of a little bit ongoing. But these other ones you mentioned are like a single thing. But there are also weekend long opportunities that are super cool. Like, Making Math Moments does a summit. Jon and Kyle put together something. And then Christina Tondevold has her Build Math Mind summit. That's generally over a weekend, so you can take some time to learn there. 

Pam  05:59

Yeah, and I think those were maybe the two that started everything. I think Christina might have started first with her Build Math Mind summit, where... And then shortly after, I think Jon and Kyle started theirs.Where you get to hear shorter presentations from several voices. You kind of get a chance to hear differing viewpoints about different topics, and kind of hear from thought leaders, and sort of the things that are kind of happening. Yeah, we really appreciate that those guys that put on summits like that, give us an opportunity to kind of... Yeah, just see these little... I shouldn't say "little", but bite size. You know, kind of shorter things from a variety of people all at once. Like you said, it's over a weekend. Yeah, it's really cool.

Kim  07:18

Yeah. And I want to mention these because these are why. Like, this is why these kinds of things are good, right? So, different than a book, different than a district kind of mandated session. Yeah. This is why weekends like these are fantastic because they give access and opportunity to everyone. So, think of this. You don't have to travel. You don't have to pay for a hotel. You don't have to take time off work, which means gets a substitute, which always just more work than, you know, it's maybe worth sometimes. 

Pam  07:48

Yeah.

Kim  07:48

And often, at least when I was in school, I was usually the only one sent or maybe I had one partner, and then we're tasked with absorb as much as we possibly can. And then, of course, we have to come back and like dump our knowledge on...

Pam  08:04

(unclear). Yeah.

Kim  08:05

...somebody else. Yeah.

Pam  08:06

Yeah, because that's that's easy to do. Mmhm.

Kim  08:08

Right, right.  The other thing that's really cool about these sessions is you can leave a session if it turns out to be not quite what you thought it would be, or maybe you realize that's not like maybe what you didn't think it was going to be, or maybe it's not really applicable to what you're trying to learn in the moment.

Pam  08:09

Yeah. Mmhm. 

Kim  08:29

Or you can hit a session that someone suggests because they saw it, and they liked it, and since it's recording, you can still see it, right? So, these sessions, these summits, they're recorded, and so I sometimes will participate in the summit, and then later in one of our groups, somebody will say, "Hey, did you hear so and so speak?" And I'm like, "Ah, there's so many choices!" And I'll go back and watch, which is so fantastic. 

Pam  08:52

if you're at like an in-person Conference, which has its benefits as well, but somebody says, "Man, did you see..." Well, then it's over, right? You don't have a chance to go, yeah, watch that because they're not recorded. So, there's some advantages to summits because they're recorded, and, like you said, you can listen to them later. Or walk... Walk? Quote, unquote, "walk out of one" that maybe isn't meeting your needs. And Sure.

Kim  09:17

And that's... You know, that's unfortunate. And that makes me sad to do because sometimes it's not that the person's doing a bad job, it's just that like you're trying in that moment to get the thing that's on your mind or the thing that you think is the most applicable. And I'm not a fan of walking out, but I also, if you're paying this money, and you have this time, you want to do the thing that is going to fit your needs. So, the other thing that I love...

Pam  09:42

Well, I'm going to pause it for just saying, because I think both of their summits. When you said "paying this money". 

Kim  09:46

Oh, in an in-person. Sorry. 

Pam  09:49

Ah, if you were in person.

Kim  09:49

Yeah.

Pam  09:50

But I'll also say, even though they're... Well, "even though". We love the fact that these summits are free.

Kim  09:56

Right.

Pam  09:56

We'll just want to give these guys credit because it's a lot of work.

Kim  09:59

Yeah.

Pam  10:00

And it's definitely not free for them to put it on. So, we definitely, You know like, that's a good thing. But it is your time, right? That's costly. 

Kim  10:08

Yeah. 

Pam  10:08

And so rather than, you know, sit and just politely kind of waste your time. Not because it's bad, like you said, but maybe because it's just not meeting your need in that moment.

Kim  10:17

Right. 

Pam  10:17

It gives you an opportunity to go listen to something else. Sure, 

Kim  10:20

Yeah, yeah. 

Pam  10:21

Well, and frankly, to sweep your floor while you're listening. Or fold your laundry. Like whatever else is happening. Again, there are pros and cons. You know, there's something about being in an in-person where you're really focused and you're there with somebody. You know, ideally. But there's also something about being able to kind of get your chores done while you're absorbing some good PD at the same time.

Kim  10:26

That's so true.

Pam and Kim  10:43

Yeah.

Kim  10:44

The other thing that I love, love, love about these summits, and I'm so grateful that Christina and Jon and Kyle are putting them on, is that you can, ahead of time, see what's going to happen, and you can plan sessions with a friend. Like, you and I have said, "Hey, in this summit, this is coming up. Let's both watch this." And we'll side text, or we'll take notes, and we'll visit afterwards because you and I believe so strongly in shared experiences.

Pam  11:12

Yeah. 

Kim  11:13

And hearing it. And we hear different things, and we have kind of different perspectives and experiences walking in, and so we kind of wrestle over things, and we notice different aspects that make it even richer. And in, you know, when you go to a in-person type conference, then sometimes you and I have said, "Oh, we have to divide and conquer," and it's just not as good that way. It's just not.

Pam  11:37

Yeah. Yeah, because the shared experience, like you said, we come  with different experiences, and it gives us a chance to grapple with what we hear.

Kim  11:46

Yeah.

Pam  11:47

And together, you know like, beat it out and say, "Wait, wait, wait, wait. Why do you think that?" And then you can come back with what you think. And then I can say, "But what about..." And you can say, "Yeah, but what about this?" And then I can say, "Oh, you mean that! I heard you say this. Well, I heard the person say that." And you're like, "No, no, no. I think they mean this." And just the whole being able to get more clear on what I'm thinking, and also to understand your take on something. Much less, you know, the shared experience that we had, the hearing from the the expert. All of that just really makes it richer in the moment for both of us. But then later, as we're dealing with something else, we both get a chance to draw on that shared experience.

Kim  12:31

Yeah. 

Pam  12:31

You know, and you can say, "Wait, wait, wait. I think this is like..." blank. And I could be like, "Oh!" And because we had the shared experience, we now have that reference point to draw from. And that's unbelievably huge. I think that's one of the reasons why we... I don't know if see eye to eye is the right way to say it. But one of the reasons why we can... How many times, Kim, have we been in a planning meeting, somebody on the team goes. It's like, they're watching ping pong or something like back and forth between the two of us.

Kim  12:58

I feel so bad.

Pam  12:59

Pam, Kim, Pam, Kim, Pam, Kim. And then, you and I go, "Okay, we got it." And they're like, "Okay, what?" And then we have to sort of translate. Well, in part, because you and I have so many shared experiences that we can kind of do that popcorn thing really, really quickly and go, "Oh yeah, okay." Then once we're sort of solid or settled, then, you know, we're happy to talk about it on the podcast.  Yeah, there you go. So, also, I find these summits... And maybe I'll just say up front, it's not only Christina and Jon and Kyle. I have been invited to be on some other smaller summits. And we wish everybody the best that's trying to bring professional learning to everybody. But not only are these summits and opportunities for teachers and leaders to hear from current thought leaders, but they're also an opportunity for less known thought leaders to get their message out to more people. So, you know, we've talked to both Christina and Jon and Kyle and how they they seek out, you know, people that have some interesting ideas, and things that are on the forefront, and are seeking to raise those people up, give them an opportunity to spread their message. And I think that's super.

Kim  13:23

Yeah. I'm going to...

Pam  14:13

Yeah, we like that. 

Kim  14:13

Can I... Yeah, can I dive in here because here's the thing. In some of these conferences that you go to, and maybe bigger ones, there are more voices. But often, I think what happens is at some of these conferences, teachers have really valuable things to share, but they're up against big name people. (unclear).

Pam  14:36

Mmhm. People with more name recognition. Sure, Mmhm.

Kim  14:38

Yeah.

Pam  14:39

Yep.

Kim  14:39

And so like, maybe their experience or their take on things isn't heard as much. But man, teachers love learning from teachers. And they are so valuable because they're still in the classroom, and they're doing things. And so, I love this kind of environment because A, I think there are some teachers who are more willing to share, like in this, in a virtual environment, or maybe a pre-recorded thing if, you know, if they're maybe somebody who gets nervous on a stage.

Pam  15:10

Or it's not as expensive, right? You don't have to do the travel. You don't have to go. And, like we said before, you don't find the substitute, and all that things just gives a lot more opportunity and access. Sure.

Kim  15:16

Yeah. Absolutely.

Pam  15:25

Yeah. And when there's that maybe lesser known voice, then when you hear about them, then you can go find more about what they're saying and suggesting. It's a way to find messages that you might not even know that you're interested in.

Kim  15:38

Right. 

Pam  15:38

Which could be really helpful. And then, like you said, if one of them doesn't necessarily meet your interest, you can head on over to one that might fit you in that moment a little bit better. Yeah.

Kim  15:49

Yeah.

Pam  15:49

Yeah, so we really thank technology, the idea that we have the technology that can make it happen. And we're really grateful to summit creators for giving us all more opportunities for awareness. I'm especially grateful to Christina Tondevold and Kyle Pearce and Jon Orr for inviting me to present on their summits. I know they've invited me several times, and it has really allowed me to kind of get the Math is Figure-Out-Able word out and really help a lot of teachers kind of understand the perspective that I'm suggesting. And yeah, I know we've done this kind of work. It's not cheap. It's not easy. And so, we're super grateful that they've found a way to really help all of us grow and learn professionally in a virtual, free atmosphere. Yeah. Hey, ya'll, we'll put a link in the show notes for those particular summit. When we are recording this, I think it's going to... This particular podcast will drop right before Christina Tonovald's summit this year is coming out. So, we want to encourage everybody to sign up for that and take advantage this wonderful, wonderful opportunity. We'll put the link in the show notes for the summits that we're aware of that you should check out. And yeah, ya'll, go learn some more about some voices out there that are saying some super interesting and helpful things about math education. Alright, ya'll, thank you for tuning in and teaching more and more real math. To find out more about the Math is Figure-Out-Able movement, visit mathisfigureoutable.com. Let's keep spreading the word that Math is Figure-Out-Able!