Pam  0:00  
Hey, fellow mathers! Welcome to the podcast where Math is Figure-Out-Able. I'm Pam, a former mimicker turned mather.

Kim  0:08  
And I'm Kim, a reasoner who now knows how to share her thinking with others. At Math is Figure-Out-Able, we are on a mission to improve math teaching.

Pam  0:15  
We

know that algorithms are super cool historic achievements, but they're terrible teaching tools because mimicking step-by-step procedures actually traps students into using less sophisticated reasoning than the problems are intended to develop.

Kim  0:29  
In this podcast, we help you teach mathing, building relationships with your students, and grappling with mathematical relationships.

Pam  0:36  
Ya'll, thanks for joining us to make math more figure-out-able.

Kim  0:40  
Hi. 

Pam  0:41  
Alright. Yes? 

Kim  0:42  
You know what I realized? 

Pam  0:44  
Tell me.

Kim  0:44  
The last couple of episodes, we've intended to be one and both times with...

Pam  0:50  
(unclear).

Kim  0:50  
...Problem Strings and thin slicing couple of episodes back and with universal screeners, we've had to stop and say, "Wait It's too long." 

There you go. Alright.

Passionate about, okay, so

last week... 

Pam  1:02  
Not like we don't have a lot to say.

Kim  1:03  
I know.

So, last week, we raised the idea of universal screeners. And I said I'm firmly planted on the no screener continuum and shared that part of the problem that I have with them is the value that both students and teachers find in them. Or at least some. And I mentioned that because of the lack of value that some people see in them that maybe they aren't giving us the information that we think they are.

Pam  1:28  
Mmhm. 

Kim  1:29  
Also talked about the issues that I have with what we screen. But we saved today talking about why we screen and what we do with that information for a longer conversation today.

Pam  1:40  
Alright, so I'm a little more clear on why you push back on the whole what you screen. I still can't believe that you had a screener that tested if you got a digit right.

Kim  1:51  
Isn't that amazing? 

Pam  1:52  
That's...

Kim  1:53  
Yeah.

Pam  1:54  
That's kept me awake at night now.

Kim  1:56  
Sorry.

There's several different kinds. I think that particular one was the one that I had used the most. And really, honestly, probably prompted me to start doing more interview based stuff because what I saw that we were screening didn't really help me do much. And if you're going to screen, if you're going to...

Pam  2:19  
Take all that time.

Kim  2:20  
...get into kids heads, right? You want to do something with the information. And so, when I... You know, I was a fresh baby teacher, and I was like, "Oh, this is what we do." And thank goodness for my administrators because what we actually did with them, I thought was helpful, and they let me go to bat, and, you know, rail against what the results supposedly were. But anyway. So, let's talk why we screen.

Pam  2:45  
Yeah, let's do it. 

Kim  2:46  
So, I worked at a title one school, and we had additional funds for support, and so one of the things... 

Pam  2:54  
So, just

for any international listeners.

Kim  2:56  
Oh, yeah, yeah. 

Pam  2:56  
Title one means that there's low socioeconomic.

Kim  3:00  
Mmhm. 

Pam  3:00  
Yep. Okay. 

Kim  3:00  
Yeah, and

so we would get additional funds to do some additional support. Now, you know, we might call that tier one, tier two, tier three. And so, we had... We didn't call it then. But we had ways that kids could get some more support for tier two. And so, we felt that we needed to identify students who, from the very beginning of the year, we could provide additional support for, and so the universal screeners were where we got some information. So, we gave this nationwide screener...again, it was not necessarily on the standards that I was teaching...to identify students. And as a result of these screeners... I can't remember if it was color based or if it was number based. It's been too long. But kids would come back with this is where you rank in comparison to the kids in your class. This is where you fall in the grade level.

Pam  3:50  
When you say color based, you don't mean like skin color.

Kim  3:52  
(unclear). Like a red, green. Yeah, like a

red, green, yellow. No, no. Like.

Pam  3:55  
Okay. 

Kim  3:55  
If you got not many right, you were red. If you were, you know.

Pam  3:59  
I

kind of remember when I used to do... Is it DRA? And I was like.

Kim  4:03  
Yeah, that was a reading assessment. 

Pam  4:04  
I was a blue. I came out blue or

whatever. 

Kim  4:06  
No, that's not that one. But. 

Pam  4:08  
Oh. 

Kim  4:08  
Numbers. That was number based. 

Pam  4:10  
That

was number. 

Kim  4:10  
34 (unclear). 

Pam  4:11  
I remember being a color. I don't know what the color was. Anyway. It's fine. It's fine.

Kim  4:15  
Yeah. And... Oh, can I tell you? This is... I'm all over the place. My student. My one of my students.

Pam  4:22  
Like your kid? Your kid? (unclear).

Kim  4:24  
Yeah, my personal boy was... Oh, I can't even say this. So, part of this information is to quote, unquote, "learn about kids", right? Like, find out where they are.

Pam  4:37  
What they know.

Kim  4:37  
Whatever. What they know, don't know. 

Pam  4:39  
Okay.

Kim  4:39  
And so, you give these screeners, you get all this data, and then often, schools will put kids up to each other, have a conversation, right? It's like a data talk. You would say, "Okay, this is where the student landed for this screener. And so, we would get that information, and I would go meet with my principal and assistant principal, and we would say, "Okay, this is where your class stands as it is. Tell me about these students." And so, even though the screeners were not fantastic, I had a beautiful situation where I would go and say, "I know John was yellow on this particular screener. Let me tell you why I don't believe he needs tier two support." And I would tell all of the things that I knew and what I'm still wondering about and how I'm going to figure it out. So, that was kind of best case scenario, and they trusted me, and all the things. But the alternative that is you have schools where they say, "They landed in this color. We are requiring all students who land in this color, or on this number, or in this whatever category to get additional stuff." One of my sons had this kind of screener happen. And both my kids have some small group accommodations, and so when they do any kind of testing, they go into a different room for small group. And one of my kids came home one day and said, "Hey, I was in my small group, and on the wall were pieces of paper that kids were sorted." And he said, "How come I don't blank if I'm yellow or whatever?" And I was like...

Pam  6:19  
Wait, wait. He

could see where he'd been ranked? Oh, gosh.

Kim  6:22  
Yeah. It was

unfortunate. And they've been in lots of schools. And, you know, whatever. But it was unfortunate because I think kids know. Whether they see on the wall or whatever, they know, and it creates a situation within them to know I did the screener, and somebody's going to judge me that way. And even though we don't say it, they know there's an outcome. They know there are different layers of support. They know that their performance matters to someone.

So...

Pam  6:55  
Yeah, I just had a visceral memory. Can I share it? 

Kim  6:57  
Yeah.

Pam  6:58  
Yeah, I remember going to Arlene Wheeler and saying, "What color did you get?" 

Kim  7:01  
Mmm, mmhm.

Pam  7:02  
And as long as the two of us had the same color, then we knew we were okay. Like, that was the we could sort of judge, you know like, the outcome based on. Okay. Yeah. That's so weird, right? 

Kim  7:15  
Yeah.

Pam  7:16  
Yeah. What a stratifying...

Kim  7:19  
Mmhm. 

Pam  7:19  
...dividing kind of thing. 

Kim  7:21  
And

I think there are ways that we need to have conversations about students. I don't think a universal screener is the thing because I don't think that one screener, test, whatever you want to call that was not created by the teacher who's with students is the best way to get to know a student. So, we come back with these colors or these layers. And like I mentioned last week, part of the difficulty is was it legit? Was it a legit testing day for them? Was the timing part of the problem? Is there one type of problem over and over? We believe really strongly in content knowledge and knowledge of students, and I don't think that that's the best way to sort kids. And if the point is not about sorting, but really knowing about your kids deeply, if really about what do they currently know and what to work with them, a national screener isn't the way to go.

Pam  8:21  
Okay, so that's going to be tricky for me in a few ways because you just... If my kid's in your classroom where you have the content knowledge that you have and you've gotten to know my student, with your content knowledge, I'm more comfortable with you creating some sort of screenery thing. But I'm less comfortable with many teachers who that's not their specialty, that they haven't had a lot of background. And if they're not, what do you say to principals that are like, "Yeah, but I need some sort of..." We use the word "standardized" on purpose. You know, some sort of standardized kind of thing that we can really... You know that a teacher can write a test or a quiz that can completely show one kind of score that the kids are doing one way.

Kim  9:11  
Right.

Pam  9:12  
And a different teacher can write a test on the same kind of material, but because they wrote it.

Kim  9:18  
Yeah.

Pam  9:18  
Like I said, like the same kind of questions, or the way. Like, kids could come up dramatically different based on those different assessments. So, how do we have any kind of comparison? 

Kim  9:29  
So, I'm not...

Pam  9:30  
Do we have comparison?

Kim  9:31  
Well, the question is do we need comparison? In this particular situation, we had the opportunity to provide additional support, so we did want to identify students who we thought would benefit from additional support. And what I'm saying is I don't think a universal, nationwide screener was the way to go. I think that maybe some district assessments, some school assessments. If we really wanted to judge who in this building could use support in this area, then we could have created something to test that particular area. Because, let's be clear, if I'm a yellow and you're a yellow, or if I'm a four and you're... Whatever the ranking is. If you and I both land in a small group setting, you might have been there because you needed a different thing than I needed. And all of a sudden, we're in a small group of four, and we're both quote, unquote yellow, so here we sit. And there's barely any chance that you have the same needs that I have based on a nationwide screener that tests all of the grade level content.

Pam  10:37  
Okay, pushing back again.

Kim  10:38  
Yeah. 

Pam  10:39  
I know you keep saying "nationwide". At least those nationwide screeners hopefully have been through statistical analysis to prove that they are valid and reliable. Those are two terms that we use in statistics to talk about how, you know, if an assessment is good, then it should pass the statistical test of being valid, and in a different way, pass a test that says it's reliable. If I've got... I mean, I've met a lot of elementary, middle school math leaders that could be in the position to create those assessments who would absolutely not create something that's neither valid nor reliable. 

Kim  11:17  
Yeah, yeah.

Pam  11:18  
Yeah. 

Kim  11:19  
But

I guess what I'm saying is what we do with those is generally to provide support for students. And if you're testing all the topics of a grade level, and then you put them in the same room with only four, or five kids, or ten kids, or whatever, you're making choices about what you do in that small group setting, and it might be that not every kid needs that thing that you put them in a small group. It's kind of like the idea of, "Hey, you got a C in algebra, I'm going to put you in a new algebra class." But maybe you just didn't quite understand one portion of it. Or... Yeah, I don't know. It just it feels weird to me to say I'm going to call you blank category and assume that you have the same need as the person next to you. I'm going to give you small group time on something just because you fit into a category, but maybe that wasn't the reason that you fit in that category. Maybe working on geometry and small group, and you nailed every geometry question but because you're yellow overall, you got to sit here.

Pam  12:26  
So, what if the screener put you in yellow? Yellow? I don't know why we're dogging on yellow today. But if the screener put the kids in yellow, isn't it then the job of the interventionist to decide what that kid's next best? Like, Isn't that where they could get? 

Kim  12:46  
In

a perfect world. In a perfect world. And I guess what I'm saying is because a test judges kids, it's often what I see in schools is that is the final say. We put all red kids in this situation. We put all yellow kids in this situation. And because they're red or yellow, they need

it all. 

Pam  13:08  
So, if we could create them to judge better these kind of, it sounds like you've got kind of in... Well, you and I have kind of in our heads the more important parts of math that we would. You know, we would definitely base on a sort of asset, what can kids do and where would we work with them next? If we could create something like that, what do you think?

Kim  13:38  
[Sighs]

Pam  13:38  
How are you doing, Kim?

Kim  13:39  
Yeah. 

Pam  13:40  
You volunteered for this, right?

We're still friends? 

Kim  13:42  
(unclear). Yeah, yeah. It's totally good.

I mean, yeah. I think if you and I could create something, we would probably create something better. I think that there are better things out there than the blanket screener that I was. You know, screeners that I was asked to use. I think student interviews are absolutely much more insightful than a one page, "Go do these problems." In general, though, I think often we use them as a way to sort kids in a moment in time. We use them as a measure of what you know or don't know. And that's ever evolving. It's ever changing. And you might have an "aha" moment tomorrow that you didn't have today, and because I tested you today and not tomorrow, you know, that... I don't know. For me, it's an ongoing, every day assessment of students on a regular basis. And for me, the effort and the time is much better spent building teachers diagnostic techniques, they're assessing and what they should assess as they work with students.

Pam  14:59  
Okay, so let me follow that down the rabbit hole. So, if you're going to offer some kids support, and you can only offer some kids that support, you've got to ascertain who needs it the most. You're saying our efforts in education would be better spent helping teachers get better at authentically assessing kids as they're doing the work of the school to say, "Ooh, yeah. Like, you need some help in this particular thing. Let's give you some support there. And you need some help in this particular thing, let's give you some support there." Is that kind of what I'm hearing

you say? 

Kim  15:31  
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think we spend the first. You know, I don't know if I told you how this happened. But, you know, first week of school, "Yay, procedures." Whatever. In elementary school, you're practicing, your learning classroom routines. Week two and three, you're straight up into assessment and screeners, and I would much rather spend those two weeks diving into curriculum, being in conversation with my kids. And I think if you ask me at the end of the first week who do you need to keep your eye on as they're learning, who's going to need more time, who's going to need additional support as you work with your students, I could give you names of where the kids are in that moment that I need to do work with. And I don't think that's true for every teacher. It's a skill that I've worked really hard to hone. But I think if we could help teachers. I'm not special. It's a thing that can be developed. And so, I think if we help teachers. I think many teachers can. And I think that those who feel like they don't know if we could work with them to get better at that, understanding where kids are and what the major landmarks are that their kids need to develop, I just think the time would be better spent.

Pam  16:43  
So, it's interesting. I don't know if we have any middle and high school teachers that have hung on through this because they're like, "We don't do screeners, so we're off." If you're still here, I can't help but think of a lot of the teachers that I taught with at the high school level who... And I'm not quite sure exactly how to say this. But had much less of a kind of outlook or perspective of saying let me kind of see where kids are and what they can do and move and help build on that. And it was much more of I kind of don't care who walks in the door. I'm going to teach the subject. So, if you walk in in my door in third period, you're getting Algebra 2, and I'm starting on day one, and I've got my lesson plans for 180 days, and you either pass or fail because here's the top, here's the class I'm teaching. I mean, as I say that, I'm aware there are standards, and we're trying to meet those standards, and it's sort of our job is to like teach the standards of that course or that grade or whatever. But it's such a different perspective to think like... I don't know if I making any sense. I'm not advocating for that perspective. I'm not saying, "Yeah, we should just say I'm teaching Algebra 2, so if you're in this room, then here we go. I've got the lesson plans. I've been honing them over years. We're just starting on day one. We're going to day 180. Hang on tight." But would it be helpful if we had something in those situations to actually give us an idea of what kids can do? Or are we back to what you were saying? Help equipping teachers to be able to dive into the work, and as we do, interacting with kids, so that we get that view, that vision, that map, that landscape of where they are, what can they do, and then work within our grade level standards to move the math forward for everybody. 

Kim  18:34  
Yeah,

I mean it's not that I don't think we ever assess kids. Like, I'm assessing kids all day long every time I have a conversation with them. But I understand the need for data and assessment. I think in this conversation, I'm specifically speaking towards these universal screeners. You know, you mentioned you would be okay with me writing tests, and I'm glad you think so because I did write tests for your kids.

Pam  18:59  
Haha, because

you were my kids teacher. Yeah.

Kim  19:02  
And I do think that there are some people maybe who have a bigger landscape and know more content that could support other people. I think that is the work that we as grade levels and districts and campuses do to create what feels like fair assessments. I'm just saying these big nationwide screener to judge kids, sort them without taking anything else into consideration are unacceptable

to me. 

Pam  19:29  
Not helpful, yeah. In fact, I think at some point I asked you why they're called universal and they're called screeners. 

Kim  19:35  
Yeah.

Pam  19:35  
Do you remember what you said? 

Kim  19:36  
Yeah.

Well, I think you said, "Why are they universal?!" And I don't remember exactly what I said, but I'm pretty sure it was like, "Yeah, exactly. They're not universal. And why are we screening? And 

yeah.

Pam  19:50  
Yeah. A thing that just came to mind that I do find kind of interesting is I have looked at some screeners and been interested to go, "Ooh, that's interesting how you just were getting at that. Like, that's interesting how you wrote that." I am very interested in really assessing, like good assessment items.

Kim  20:11  
Yeah. 

Pam  20:12  
That really get at. Well, in fact, I used to say I want to write an assessment that you cannot just memorize your way through, that you actually have to know what's going on. That was always a goal of mine when I was in the classroom, when I was at the university. Like, what kind of assessment can I write that you cannot just, you know, have kind of been here and snored through half the class, and if you just have test taking hacks that you... No, like, what do you actually have to know what's going on? So, I'm always really interested to write those. So, there are times where, you know, I look at some of the screeners that are out there and go, "Huh. That's really interesting..." I wonder if... Let me finish that sentence. "That's really interesting how you ask that. That gives me ideas of how I can better assess kids." I do wonder if that could be a way that we could use some of the screeners is just to get an idea of how we could be assessing better.

Kim  21:02  
Mmhm. 

Pam  21:02  
If there are decent items that are out there that, yeah, can just give us some inspiration about it how to do stuff. Kim, what if we have to use something?

Kim  21:13  
Yeah, I think that's fair. I mean, I think it's fair that schools, you know, aren't prepared today to go write their own. And so, you know, there are a few that we... You know, when people ask us, which they do all the time, there's a few that that we will point them to that are more thoughtful, that are definitely interview based. While they might take more time to interview kids, you'll learn more and that will be much more effective.

Pam  21:40  
Well, and can I add to "learn more"? Learn more about the student.

Kim  21:43  
Right.

Pam  21:44  
And learn more as a teacher.

Kim  21:46  
Sure. 

Pam  21:47  
Like, if you give a well written, thoughtful assessment item, and you are looking at, you know like, how to score it, you're learning what was, what, important to the test writers. You know, what they thought got scores and what they didn't. And all of that is, I think, can be like the teacher can learn as well. 

Kim  22:07  
Yeah.

Pam  22:08  
Yeah. Alright, so some of the ones that we would recommend. We like Forefront - The Universal Screeners for Number Sense. Nice thing is that they're free. I think David Woodward is doing a really nice job with that. So, you could check those out. I haven't done as much digging as I want to, but tentatively, right now, I think All Learners Network. I love the their stance that all learners can do valuable mathematics, and when they say "all" actually means all. They have a bank of assessments that are available. I think would definitely be well worth looking into. 

Kim  22:42  
Yeah.

Pam  22:43  
I think, Kim, one of the things that you said earlier that maybe to end on something about the results. Like, what do we do with the results? So, if we're forced to... Well, let's say it a couple of ways. If we're forced to use something, let's look at trying to get something as thoughtful as we can. If we're forced to use something, and we don't have a choice, but we're forced to use it. If we could just invite everybody to consider what are we doing at the results of the you're taking this time and effort and putting kids through doing this. How are you using the results? And and how thoughtful can we be? I don't if "thoughtful" is the right word. Judicious about making sure that we're using those results in ways that actually help kids learn more and more math.

Kim  23:28  
Yeah. I would add to that, that when I did these screeners, if I had a student who, whatever it was red or yellow, then I would pull those students and ask them questions. And that's a lot of times what would arm me with information when I would go to my principal, and I would say, "Yeah, they're having an off day. When I had a conversation with them, you know, eight of these questions they know information about." And so, we would carefully make choices about who would get additional support. We would think about the support that was going to be happening in the small groups and whether or not every kid fit in that particular group. I can see if you are required to do these screeners, it can be a start of a conversation, but it's certainly not the end.

Pam  24:14  
Oh, that's nicely said. Yeah. Alright, ya'll, universal screeners. Love them or hate them. Let's hear from you. Let's us know on social media what you're thinking about. Ya'll, thanks for tuning in and teaching more and more real math. To find out more about the Math is Figure-Out-Able movement, visit mathisfigureoutable.com. And keep spreading the word that Math is Figure-Out-Able!