Pam  0:00  
Hey, fellow mathers! Welcome to the podcast where Math is Figure-Out-Able. I'm Pam, a former mimicker turned mather.

Kim  0:09  
And I'm Kim, a reasoner who now knows how to share her thinking with others. At Math is Figure-Out-Able, we are on a mission to improve math teaching.

Pam  0:16  
We know that algorithms are amazing historic achievements, but y'all, they're terrible teaching tools because mimicking step by step procedures actually traps students into using less sophisticated reasoning than the problems are intended to develop.

Kim  0:29  
In this podcast, we help you teach mathing, building relationships with your students, and grappling with mathematical relationships.

Pam  0:36  
We're so glad you're with us to make math more figure-out-able. 

Kim  0:40  
Hey, hey. 

Pam  0:41  
Alright, so you might have noticed I changed that last line to "We're so glad..." 

Kim  0:45  
Yeah.

Pam  0:45  
Because today we're going to be like thankful a little bit. Yeah. It's a thankful time of the year. 

Kim  0:46  
We should be thankful every day, but... 

Pam  0:52  
We should

Pam  0:52  
be, yeah. 

Kim  0:52  
Listen, at this time of the year, it's busy, so yes, let's take some time to be thankful for all that we have. And can we slow down?

Pam  1:03  
Yes. Yes, let's do. Let's do. Let's have a good podcast today. 

Kim  1:07  
Yeah.

Kim  1:08  
I'll try to stay focused. So, let's start off. We got the sweetest review from our friend Laura Thomas. You know, it was a bit ago, but so sweet. Listen, it's fun when people that we know personally listen, and then send a message to say, "Hey, I've listened to that episode." Some of my teacher friends from when I used to teach sometimes send a message, and I'm like, "Oh, you've listened to the podcast. That's cool." Anyway. So, Laura said, "You two are the best. If you are a math teacher, a parent, or someone interested in learning how Math is Figure-Out-Able, you must listen to this podcast. Pam and Kim are so knowledgeable and relatable. Thankful to you for putting your work out into the world."

Pam  1:53  
Aww. Thanks,

Pam  1:53  
Laura. 

Kim  1:54  
Thank you.

Pam  1:55  
Appreciate that. 

Kim  1:56  
Yeah.

Pam  1:56  
Nice. Well, that's very thankful.

Pam  2:00  
That's a brilliant way to start our thankful episode as we're nearing the end of the calendar year.

Kim  2:07  
Yeah, so it generally gets really full of events and family, but it can be simultaneously fun and stressful, so we thought that we would spend a little bit of time reflecting on what we're grateful for.

Pam  2:20  
Yeah, well, express some gratitude today. 

Kim  2:22  
Yeah. 

Pam  2:23  
So, let's start, Kim, with our podcast listeners.

Kim  2:26  
Yeah.

Pam  2:27  
Y'all, we're so grateful that you're taking the time to improve your craft. Like, here you are listening to a podcast on math teaching. Who knew that would go anywhere?

Kim  2:37  
Right? 

Pam  2:37  
You know, it's funny, Kim. I was just in a little while ago in Halifax, Nova Scotia, and a couple people mentioned that they listened to the podcast, and that they were sort of grateful for it. And I smiled, and I said, "You know, when Kim and I record, sometimes we kind of wonder does anybody listen?" Like, it was just the two of us chatting with each other. So, listeners, thank you so much for taking the time to hang out with us a little bit and really talk about math teaching, and teaching math, and spending time on improving the craft of teaching. We honor you for taking that time because not everybody does. And it's a thing, and we're

Pam  3:13  
grateful for you. 

Kim  3:14  
For sure. You know, I think even if nobody listened. Which, you know we should probably look into that. But even if they didn't, I'm grateful because we get to have conversations that, you know, sometimes maybe we don't set aside the time to do that. So, I'm glad that people listen. You know who I'm really grateful for? 

Pam  3:31  
Tell me. 

Kim  3:32  
Our teacher Facebook group. That group is amazing. I don't know. I know you are not a Facebook fan, and I know you don't spend a ton of time in groups. But, you know, I am in some other groups, and I'm going to just say that I think this group, that the community that we have, these people are amazing. They share ideas. They're so positive. They ask great questions, which make me think. And, you know, unlike some other groups, like we wrestle with some important ideas. And, you know, sometimes I push back on some ideas. But anyway, thank you, teacher Facebook group. You make me better. You make everyone in our team better. If you're not in the community, join us. You are always welcome.

Pam  4:13  
And if they're going to look...

Kim  4:13  
Thank you to the people, yeah.

Pam  4:16  
Sorry, if they're going to look that up, it's with a... What's it called? 

Kim  4:22  
It's the Math is

Kim  4:24  
Figure-Out-Able Community, Math is Figure-Out-Able Teacher Facebook group. 

Pam  4:28  
Wonderful.

Pam  4:29  
Yeah, every once in a while, I'll dive in. You're right. I'm not a big Facebook fan. But that is the one group that is, like you said, positive, moving forward.

Kim  4:37  
So, upbeat. Yeah. 

Pam  4:37  
It's nice. So, I'd also like today to express gratitude to those of you who have taken our workshops, our online, asynchronous workshops because you're taking time and space to dive into specific content. 

Kim  4:52  
Yeah. 

Pam  4:53  
And I'm also super grateful for those who are in our teacher coaching group that we call Journey because they're taking an extra step to ask more questions, and continue to learn, and really dive into more than just like one specific area of content. I'm also super grateful for our leader coaching group. We call those our JourneyLEADERs. Y'all, they are diving in to help systems and adults really move forward and make shifts in teaching in large scale. Really grateful for the effort that they put into being both a leader and a continuing math learner. Super great group. Thank you for making teaching and leading your priority, for always improving for your students. 

Kim  5:39  
Yeah,

Kim  5:39  
and selfishly, these people ask us questions, and it makes us think. We examine.

Pam  5:45  
Ooh, yeah. 

Kim  5:46  
You know, they ask questions that we go, "Man, that's a great question. What do we think about that? And how does that fit in with the beliefs that we have been sharing?" So, thank you for making us better. 

Pam  5:58  
Yeah, I'll

Pam  5:59  
add on to that, that there's certain areas that... Golly, how do I say this, what I mean? Areas that I taught I have really thought hard about how to teach as figure-out-able.

Kim  6:10  
Yeah.

Pam  6:11  
Areas where, Kim, you've pushed me on. And now, what you're saying is areas where our Journey members, our JourneyLEADER, or workshop participants. When they say not only what about this pedagogy but also what about this content? Like, how do you teach this? And we're getting pretty... What's a good word? Pretty deep. Pretty in depth. Pretty... There's a better word I want. 

Kim  6:31  
They're not surface level questions. 

Pam  6:33  
It's not surface. And, like, it's specific. It's like, well, how about this part of rounding? Or how about this part of long division? Or how about this part of solving equations? 

Kim  6:42  
Yeah.

Pam  6:43  
That is... I love it because, like you said, it kind of gives us the reason, the impetus. 

Kim  6:49  
Yeah.

Pam  6:49  
We then have to create space to dive in and really think hard about how do we make that little part of math more figure-out-able, and how do we teach

Pam  6:57  
it better?

Kim  6:57  
It's our learning community. It's our professional learning community of people who have chosen to be a part of Math is Figure-out-able, and it's just so much fun. (unclear).

Pam  7:06  
Yeah, it's awesome. Yep. 

Kim  7:08  
Speaking of people that we learn from. And there are some people out there. So many, right? There's so many. We're not going to name them. There are so many amazing people that we are reading from, listening to. And we get to be in those spaces. We're so lucky to get to go to conferences, and participate in summits, and get to hear from other leaders, and really examine our own beliefs. And it's so much fun, and I'm so filled with gratitude that we have this space, and there's a bunch of different ways in book form. And, like I said, summits and workshops. That we now can be connected with other leaders and just wrestle in conversations. And I'm just so grateful for the constant learning that we get to do and all the people who are putting themselves out there and their work out there. Yeah. Thankful for the math community.

Pam  8:06  
Very thankful for those very thoughtful leaders out there that, like you said, that are sort of pushing the envelope and helping us all get more consistent and being more successful teaching all students, and in a way that is making math more figure-out-able. Yeah. 

Kim  8:24  
Yeah. 

Pam  8:24  
Really appreciate

Pam  8:25  
that. 

Kim  8:25  
I'm just going to add that it's not always easy to put what you think out there, to, you know to put something in writing, to share the research that's happening. Because, you know, sometimes there's... Maybe sometimes. Always there's going to be somebody who has a commentary about it. So, you know, it takes some... I don't know. Maybe guts to put your work out there. And I'm just, you know, like I said, I'm so grateful that people are willing to do that too, you know, forward move to further education for students.

Pam  8:58  
You know, and, Kim, I've had some conversations recently with a lot of big names. And I think maybe we definitely mean... Not maybe. We definitely mean the people that, you know, have a lot of reputation behind them and the research and everything. And we're very grateful for that work and also grateful for many of the sort of smaller... Is that the right word?

Kim  9:18  
Yeah.

Pam  9:18  
Help me, Kim. Consultants that I've met lately that are just beginning their consultancy.

Kim  9:22  
Yeah, it's fresh, right? 

Pam  9:23  
Just beginning to be coaches. And there's, you know, there's the... Yeah, fresh. And there's the potential to have imposter syndrome. And to, you know, think do I have enough to share? Do I have enough background (unclear)? 

Kim  9:35  
Yes, yes, yes, yes. 

Pam  9:37  
Do I know enough? Do I do have enough expertise? And I just want to encourage everybody to keep moving forward. 

Kim  9:43  
Yeah.

Pam  9:43  
I think one of the best gifts that we can all give the education community is our humility that we don't know at all, but we're here to learn together, and that we're here to dive in and wrestle together. 

Kim  9:55  
Yeah. And all the voices matter. 

Pam  9:57  
All the voices matter. And especially, I think if we can come into it with the humility of saying, "Let's learn together." 

Pam  10:05  
Yeah. 

Pam  10:05  
And not just listening to students. That's super important. But we're also listening to each other as adults. We're trying to understand each other and our perspectives. You know, one of the things I keep talking about is how we have this communication problem where we have come from these different distorted ways of looking at math and how that might be impacting the way we teach and the way that we listen to each other. So, yeah, I'm really grateful for people who are willing to listen, and dive in, and do the work to help make us all better. And, you know, make an occasional misstep, and then own up to it. And we did all the time on the podcast.

Kim  10:42  
Yeah.

Pam  10:43  
Where, you know, you push me on something, and I'll push back, and we're both better for it.

Kim  10:47  
Right.

Pam  10:48  
Nice. Alright, how about a next one?

Kim  10:51  
What else? 

Pam  10:52  
Yeah, I've got another gratitude, T--. I almost called you Tim. 

Kim  10:58  
I'll take it.

Pam  10:58  
Because I was going to say team and Kim at the same time. Kim, I'm really grateful right now for our small team at Math is Figure-Out-Able. 

Kim  11:07  
Oh, man. Yes. 

Pam  11:08  
I'm going to... I'll ask you what you're grateful for specifically. But I'll say, specifically right now. I'm probably grateful for lots of things for our small team. But right now, at the moment, I'm grateful that they are picking up my slack. There's a... We have a small team, and I am right now being able to do more kind of big, chunky things that are taking up a lot of my bandwidth. And I really appreciate that people are kind of like, "Hey, have you forgotten about..." I'm like, "Oh. Yeah, actually." 

Kim  11:37  
Yeah. 

Pam  11:37  
So, yeah, I appreciate them picking up the slack and giving me and everybody on the team grace when we're all human and, you know, things fall through the cracks. I'm really grateful for the attitude of being willing to just sort of be in the grind with us.

Kim  11:51  
Yeah.

Pam  11:52  
Picking up each other slack and giving each other grace. 

Kim  11:54  
Yeah.

Kim  11:55  
That's funny because I actually just dropped a message

Kim  11:58  
last night that...

Pam  11:59  
You're just forgiving me for something?

Kim  12:01  
No! No, no, no. No, that, you know, that you get to be out in the world. And to some degree, I'm out in the world too. And so, we hear people comment on the work, and this and that. But it cannot be done without this small but growing team of everybody kind of diving in and doing parts and picking up each other slack. And, yeah, it could not happen without everybody else. I am really grateful for our team as well. Sometimes, like I talk really fast, and I think really fast. I think you have that...

Pam  12:37  
Tendancy? 

Kim  12:38  
...skill as well. Getting us together in a room is super fun. But I'm really grateful for people who slow me down and ask really hard questions to say, "Wait. Surely you don't mean this? Or do you mean that? Or what would that actually look like in practice? Because I think us thinking through the details and getting asked the hard questions may not be always fun. But yeah, in the same way that, you know, we learn from other people, we are learning from this team as well. And yeah, I'm grateful for that.

Pam  13:14  
Well, with that, I'm going to narrow in on the team a little bit and maybe say, Kim, I'm super grateful for you. 

Kim  13:22  
Well, thanks. 

Pam  13:24  
I'll give a really specific. Golly, was it five years ago? I don't even know. Many, many episodes ago. Sue kept pushing us to create a podcast, and I said, "There's no way that I will be able to be consistent with this." And you said, "I'll make it happen."

Kim  13:39  
I'm nothing if not consistent. 

Pam  13:41  
And you have. And we have, you know, for however many episodes. What are we on? 200 something. I don't even know.

Kim  13:47  
Like, almost 300. 

Pam  13:48  
Almost 300 episodes.

Kim  13:48  
Do you believe that? Good gravy. 

Pam  13:49  
That doesn't even count the MathStratChat episodes. You have made it happen. That's one thing I'm grateful for. I'm grateful that when I was in your third grade classroom, fourth grade classroom, fifth grade classroom, I would do things in professional learning sessions, and then I would go in your classroom and you'd made it better.

Pam  14:11  
I would be like, "Wait, what? That's not what I said."

Kim  14:11  
How bold was I that many years ago?

Pam  14:11  
Well, and I think in a big way, you just kind of did what you knew was best. And I would be like, "Oh, that tweak. Okay." And then we'd, you know, bang it around. And, yeah, the times that you would push back. You really, in a big way, helped me see some blind spots in a couple of ways. I think one interpersonal wise. There's times where you'll go, "Uh, I'm not sure. Try that again." Just, you know, just sort of relationship wise, I think you push back well and kind of help me see some blind spots. Also, mathematically. I think you had, for whatever reason, the opportunity as a young kid to think and reason about math. And so, when you know we're writing the 6-8 and the 9-12, Developing Mathematical Reasoning grade band books right now, and there are times where I'm like, "Kim, if I just gave this to you, like what would you think about?"

Kim  15:01  
Yeah.

Pam  15:01  
It's not even like the content that you taught.

Kim  15:03  
Yeah.

Pam  15:03  
But I really want to know what your fresh take is on it...

Kim  15:06  
Yeah.

Pam  15:06  
...to see do I have a blind spot? Is there something I'm not thinking about? 

Kim  15:09  
Yeah.

Pam  15:10  
How do you read this bit of research? And how do you see how kids are doing this kind of thing? And that's been super helpful for my growth as a math educator, as a mathematician, and frankly, in our small team to work better with people. Not just the lone wolf doing my own thing, but actually, you know, bringing people in and working more collaboratively. That's been very helpful. Thank you.

Kim  15:34  
Thank you. Well, I'm going to turn the tables on you then because as you were talking, I was thinking kind of about this Journey. I'm not going to... Well, maybe I will. I don't care. I'm 47 years old. And I was 22, I think when, we met. I don't know that the listeners know kind of our whole journey. I'm not going to go into it. But I think I was a 22-year-old, like second year teacher. I was young when I got out of school. And, man, if I... Gosh, could you have imagined? We had no idea. But I'm so grateful for this entire journey. I think you are such a visionary. When I heard that word several years ago, I was like, "Yes, that's exactly what Pam is." And I'm

Kim  16:16  
not that.

Pam  16:16  
All the good and the bad that comes with it,

Pam  16:18  
right? 

Kim  16:18  
Yeah, that's that's not my role. But I'm so grateful to have gotten kind of this front row seat for 25 years. You know, we've done a whole bunch of different things together, but you took a leap a number of years ago and said... We had done a project together, and then you were like, "Hey, you want to not go back to teaching?" And, you know, we kind of stared at each other, and we're like, "Uh, like, is that going to be a thing?" And, you know, we just said let's take it a year at a time. And I'm so...

Pam  16:52  
Basically, it was a little less of "Don't go back to teaching," a little bit more of "Want to jump off a cliff with me?"

Kim  16:57  
Yeah. Yeah, kind of. Yeah.

Pam  16:58  
Try this crazy thing with me?

Kim  16:59  
And it's been such a journey. Like, I've grown so much both in, you know, teaching and coaching, and, you know, my own mathematics. And I mean, what a journey to get to do what we do. And I'm so grateful that you trusted me, and I'm so grateful that, you know, that I have the opportunity to do this work and also be family centered. And, you know, education in general has changed so much. And, you know, I'm just so grateful. And so thank you for for bringing me along for the ride and, you know, trusting some intuition. And yeah, it's been a journey, and I can't wait to see what we do next.

Pam  17:41  
Absolutely back at you. And I'm grateful that God put us in a position where we could sort of land in each other's classrooms and be like, "Huh. Let's do some work together."

Pam and Kim  17:50  
Yeah. 

Pam  17:51  
Pretty cool. 

Kim  17:52  
Yeah. 

Pam  17:52  
Y'all, listeners, who are you grateful for? We invite you to consider who, right now, is on your mind as we were talking about people that we're grateful for, who pinged for you? And we invite you to let them know. Let them know at this time of the year that you're grateful for them in whatever small way that they've touched your life. We are grateful for you. We are grateful that you have the drive to improve your craft, to improve teaching. Y'all, thanks for tuning in to our podcast. We honor the journey that you are on, and we are super honored to be on it with you. Alright, y'all, thanks for tuning in and teaching more and more real math. To find out more about the Math is Figure-Out-Able movement, visit mathisfigureoutable.com. Y'all, thank you for spreading the word that Math is Figure-Out-Able.