Pam  0:01  
Hey, fellow mathers! Welcome to the podcast where Math is Figure-Out-Able. I'm Pam Harris, a former mimicker turned mather.

Kim  0:09  
And I'm Kim Montague, a reasoner who now knows how to share her thinking with others. At Math is Figure-Out-Able, we are on a mission to improve math teaching.

Pam  0:17  
We know that algorithms are super cool human achievements, but they are terrible teaching tools because mimicking step-by-step procedures can actually trap students into using less sophisticated reasoning than the problems are intended to develop.

Kim  0:30  
In this podcast, we help you teach mathing, building relationships with your students, and grappling with mathematical relationships.

Pam  0:37  
We invite you to join us to make math more figure-out-able. I feel like we've been really stilted in this intro for the last few episodes. We need to like... 

Kim  0:46  
Is it time to refresh it? 

Pam  0:48  
Well, or just goof on it or something.

Kim  0:52  
Well, tomorrow, Happy Birthday. 

Pam  0:56  
Aww.

Kim  0:56  
Happy Birthday tomorrow! 

Pam  0:57  
Well, thank you. Yay.

Kim  0:59  
Yeah, it's going to be a good day. And also for this episode...

Pam  1:02  
When you're older wiser too. Yep.

Kim  1:04  
Yeah, for sure. So, this episode Pam has not seen any of the things that I've recorded. Which probably makes her a little bit nervous.

Pam  1:12  
You just said, "Come." You said, "Come and don't worry. You don't prepare for today's podcast at all." So, here I am, fresh. 

Kim  1:20  
You trust me.

Pam  1:21  
I do actually. Yep, yep.

Kim  1:23  
Okay, so...

Pam  1:24  
Not nervous at all. 

Kim  1:25  
Okay, this is going to be great. So, it is your birthday tomorrow, and it's also the last day of 2025, which is absolutely wild. I cannot even believe it. But I thought that it would be a great time...

Pam  1:42  
It's kind of a cool day to have on a birthday, by the way. (unclear).

Kim  1:44  
It is. I know. Everybody's celebrating you. 

Pam  1:44  
The whole world has a party on my birthday. 

Kim  1:45  
I know. Isn't that fun? 

Pam  1:45  
It's amazing.

Kim  1:49  
Okay, so I what I did, not too terribly long ago was I asked our Journey members and leaders. So, we have a coaching program for teachers and leaders. And I said to them, "Hey, what is something that you hear Pam say all the time...

Pam  2:09  
Oh, goodie.

Kim  2:09  
...that when you hear it, you're like, 'That's totally Pam.' Or when you are doing something, you have a phrase that goes through your mind, and you're like, 'Dang, I got that from Pam.'" So, I've collected these.

Pam  2:22  
Can't wait. Okay.

Kim  2:24  
I know that there are some things that you say and do that are personality or just things you picked up along the way maybe from other people. And I thought it would be fun for you to talk for just a moment as I share one with you that somebody in the group, or several people in the group, said, "This is what I hear Pam say when I'm teaching." Like, they hear it in their heads. Which of those are just personality, just like kind of who you are, and what you say sometimes? And which of them are actually intentional teacher moves and why? Okay?

Pam  2:58  
You know, Kim, you were reminding me. A long time ago, you and I were presenting together. And I'm trying to remember exactly how you did it. But at some point you said, "You might see Pam and me up here do this thing, and you might go, 'Oh, yeah, that's like, because it's your personality.' But actually, there are things that we do that are intentional teacher moves, and it's not just our personalities."

Kim  3:23  
Yeah.

Pam  3:23  
Or because we teach together or because, you know like, we've taught together enough that we pick things up from each other. 

Kim  3:28  
Sure.

Pam  3:29  
It's not just something fun to do, quirky, whatever. These are intentional teacher moves. So, that's kind of what you're getting at.

Kim  3:38  
We're calling that out today. 

Pam  3:38  
What are those things? Okay. Alright, I can't wait. 

Alright. I'm ready.

Kim  3:38  
Alright, so I think what I put in the group is, "What are your favorite Pam-isms?" So, that's what we're...

Kim  3:40  
Fun times. Okay.

Pam  3:45  
Okay.

Kim  3:45  
A first Pam-ism is when you say, "99..."

Pam  3:52  
Yeah.

Kim  3:52  
That was a popular one.

Pam  3:53  
Okay, cool because I will often try to get somebody to think about 99 plus 67 or 99 times 67. And when they stare at me, and I can see them starting to do the algorithm in their head, then I'll say, "Well, you know like, you're trying to find 99 plus 67. 99..." 

Kim  4:08  
Mmhm.

Pam  4:09  
And you almost can't stop yourself from going, 99...100, 101, 102. Like, you can hear kids count, 29...30. 38, 39...40. So, that is a very purposeful teacher move, on my part, to try to nudge people's prior knowledge, to try to nudge something that if I go 99... then they almost can't stop themselves from thinking, "100. Wait. How? Ooh." And then it's like I've helped them connect something they already know to maybe a new problem or a problem they haven't thought about in that way. So, purposeful teacher move to grab that prior knowledge that I know they have and maybe suggest that it pings for them in this current situation.

Kim  4:54  
It's counting in a good way. 

Pam  4:56  
Yeah. Nice. I like it.

Kim  4:57  
Alright, ready? 

Pam  4:58  
Yeah. Okay, yep.

Kim  4:59  
Okay, the next one is, "Is that legal?"

Pam  5:04  
Is it legal? I tell you what. I picked that one up from Abby Sanchez, who's a fantastic algebra teacher here in Texas. She and I worked together for several years. We got lots of video of her. Is that an intentional teacher move? I think that is an intentional teacher move to say to kids, "Justify your thinking." Like, is that thing that you just did, something you're just doing because you've seen it before, you're mimicking. Or like justify does that actually work? That one's... I got to be honest with you. This one's a little bit tricky for me. I've actually wondered about it a little bit because it could send the message, "Does it fit somebody else's prescribed rule that they've given you that did you memorize?" And I don't want to send that message. I do want to send the message, "Have you thought that through? Can you justify it? Can you make sense of it logically?" So, that one is a little tricky for me. Yeah.

Kim  5:57  
Do you know when I use it? I use it when I see a lot of students doing a lot of the same thing, and then I have a student say something slightly different. Maybe they used a strategy the kids aren't. They're used to using algorithms. And I'll look at the rest. So, I'm not looking at the kid who says the thing. I look at the rest of the class to say, "Is what they did legal? Can we do that?" You know what I mean? Like as a we're putting out the idea that you might be dubious about what they said because you can't do that. We're just raising it for everybody.

Pam  6:28  
Nice. Yeah, that would be a good intentional time that your meaning would be clear. I like it. 

Kim  6:35  
Okay, alright, ready for another one? 

Pam  6:37  
Okay.

Kim  6:38  
"And what is 100 and 37? Isn't it nice when the answer is the question?"

Pam  6:42  
Ah, yeah. So, I try to point out moments when people are solving problems, and they get to a point where they've created. So, like, a minute ago, I said 100 and... What is 99 and 67? I think you just said 37. So, what is 99 and 37? And then they'll say, "Oh. Well, that's like I could just give 1 to the 99 to make 100." And then I'd have, in this case, you said 37. So, I'd add the 100 and 37. At that point, I'd say that, "Well, what is 100 and 37? Oh, it's like the question is the answer." That's a good moment to point out because that's never true in our traditional algorithms. Where when you're doing a traditional algorithm, you do these digit calculations, and so by the end of it, you're not to a place where you're at,  "What is 100 plus 37? What is 100 and 37? And the answer is 137." The question isn't the answer. It's never true in an algorithm, so I like to point out those moments, so that people get a chance to go, "Ah. That's what it's like to math." You're using the magnitudes. You're in the relative sizes of number as you're thinking. That's mathing. So, pointing those out. That's definitely an intentional teacher move. 

Kim  8:00  
Yeah. Okay, this next one might be related a little bit. Sometimes you say, "Sit up tall. You just mathed!"

Pam  8:06  
It's definitely related because I'm trying to create an emotional moment where people when they're mathing and they've just done the mental actions of mathing, I want them to feel that, so that they can recognize the next time they're rote memorizing and mimicking something, how that feels different than what they just did when they were mathing. So, I'm trying to create an emotional moment. So Liesl McConchie, the brain science expert, will talk about how when you can have an emotional moment, there's things that happen in your brain with the chemicals. Now, see, Liesl, don't get mad at me, because I don't remember all the words. But it's... there's something that happens where you connect, where it helps memory. And I want you to remember the moment, what your brain felt like when you were mathing, so I'm trying to create kind of this, "Sit up tall! You just mathed!" That "sit up tall" is a moment to go, "Be proud of yourself!!" Like, recognize that you're doing the mental actions of mathing. So, two things are happening. I want you to feel good about it. That's the emotional part of it. So, that you recognize the mental actions you just did, so that you begin to parse out in your professional life when are you mathing and when are you rote memorizing and mimicking?

Kim  9:25  
Yeah, yeah.

Pam  9:26  
Okay.

Kim  9:27  
Okay. Overwhelmingly, number one response, "Math is Figure-Out-Able".

Pam  9:34  
Well, I hope that that's like ringing around the world right now. 

Kim  9:36  
Yeah, right?

Pam  9:37  
Like, if we could get more people to realize what it means that math is actually figure-out-able. It's not rote memorizeable like most of us were taught. That's definitely an intentional teacher move on my part to try to shift the message, the moment, the focus, the intention that we're here to figure this out. We're not here to rote memorize and mimic. 

Kim  10:00  
Yeah.

Pam  10:00  
That's definitely intentional.

Kim  10:00  
Yeah. Okay, I think I know what you're going to say about this next one. You ready for it? 

Pam  10:05  
Yeah.

Kim  10:06  
"Bam!"

Pam  10:09  
Okay, I have a funny story about "Bam!"

Kim  10:11  
Oh, you do?"

Pam  10:12  
I've said "Bam!" for several years. I don't know where I started. But when something happens, somebody does something. Bam! I think I did it maybe in even an episode or two. 

Kim  10:22  
You've done it forever, yeah, yeah.

Pam  10:24  
Bam! A funny thing is at one point somebody goes, "Wait, wait, wait, wait. Are you saying bam, like with a B?" And I was like, "Yeah." And they're like, "Oh, this whole time I thought you were saying 'Pam'." I'm like, "I'm sorry. What? Why would I... No. No, no, no, no." 

Kim  10:39  
Are you serious? That's awesome. You just say your name when somebody does something.

Pam  10:43  
And then I guess there's a cook, a reality show with "Bam".

Kim  10:43  
Yeah, Emeril Lagasse. Mmhm. Yeah.

Pam  10:44  
Okay, so you know who it is. And somebody's like, "Oh, yeah. You got it from him." I was like, "I think he got it from me. I don't know." No, I have no idea. I have no idea where I got it from. Maybe somebody...

Kim  10:56  
That's funny. 

Pam  10:57  
I'm pretty sure I've never seen that show before, so maybe somebody got it from him, and I got it from them. Whatever. 

Kim  11:06  
Who knows? Yeah.

Pam  11:06  
That is not an intentional teacher move. That's just a dorky Pam thing. But it's bam. It's bam, with a B. Not P-P-Pam.

Kim  11:09  
Oh, my gosh. That's hilarious. Now, every time you say it in a workshop or in something else, I'm going to laugh.

Pam  11:14  
You're going to hear "Pam"? Yeah, you're going to think... 

Kim  11:15  
(unclear) now you know.

Pam  11:17  
Because you're going to like, "Oh, Pam, is that egotistical. She's saying her name."

Kim  11:22  
No. I mean, I can see how somebody would hear that. And it's more funny that they would think that you're saying your own name. Okay. Next one.

Pam  11:30  
Yes.

Kim  11:30  
"Could I invite you to consider..."

Pam  11:36  
That's a very intentional leader move.

Kim  11:40  
Yeah.

Pam  11:40  
I have to think, if that's a teacher move so much. I'm trying to think if I say that to kids. I say it to... The older the person is... So, could I see myself saying that to seniors in high school? Yes. I could see myself saying to anybody who's been ingrained in algorithms. I could see myself saying, "I invite you to consider that what you're doing right there is a bit more mimicking than what you just did over there, which was mathing." You and I did some work. When was that? With Brene' Brown and... Who else were we working with at that point? 

Kim  12:12  
Wow, taking it back. Mmhm.

Pam  12:14  
7 Habits for Highly Successful People. And we just did some professional like growth work. And I almost want to say it was before that. Anyway, that one of the things we started doing in our small team was, as we were communicating professionally with each other, we started to invite each other to consider things. And it just changes the tenor of the conversation. I was actually just in a meeting. I won't kind of tell you what it was about. It wasn't actually work. It was sort of personal thing, like a community thing. And the person was like, "We should this. We should that." The person who was like leading the conversation. So, "Do this. Do that." And I was like, "Oh, man. Could you invite us?" I just say it was interesting to just feel the difference when somebody invites you to consider something. That's an intentional move on my part to say, "You know, I'm not going to tell you what to do, but I am going to invite you to consider this. Have you ever considered that?" I just think it's more inviting. And...

Kim  13:16  
Yeah.

Pam  13:17  
Yeah. I don't know what else to say about it, but it's intentional.

Kim  13:20  
Well, and I think in the realm of mathematics, especially the kind of work that we're doing, we're not going to force somebody to do something different. You know, we can't force it. We can...

Pam  13:32  
It doesn't work.

Kim  13:32  
...invite them into the conversation about what math really is, and to shift their own belief alongside us and do some new work, new growth. And so, I think it's... Yeah, I think it's highly respectful. Okay. 

Pam  13:50  
And that is the intent. The intent is to respect that we are all, you know, educated adults who are doing our best. Nobody's out there to wreck kids or to, you know, do something poorly. Of course not. And so, yeah. I hope everything we do at Math is Figure-Out-Able comes with a huge dose of respect and an honest desire to just help everybody be the math teacher they want to be. 

Kim  14:15  
Yeah.

Kim  14:16  
Alright, we've got three more. 

Pam  14:18  
Okay.

Kim  14:18  
We've got time for three more. Alright. 

Pam  14:20  
Alright.

Kim  14:21  
When...

Pam  14:22  
That's you telling me to be short. I got it. Okay.

Kim  14:24  
No, I actually have no idea how much time we have. Alright. Okay, so the next one is when someone doesn't or won't use a strategy, you say, "I know you didn't. But could you? I know you didn't use this strategy, but could you?"

Pam  14:39  
That's a more recent one. I've only been doing that for a few years now. And it's so powerful.

Kim  14:46  
Yeah, it's good.

Pam  14:46  
When I do... So, very intentional. Often, when I'm doing a Problem String, or work, or, you know, like, even if I'm working with a group at a whiteboard, like, whatever's happening. And I might say, "I'm wondering if anybody was thinking about this relationship?" So, I'm diving into the situation with the know your content, know your kids. I know the content. I know the landscape. I know where we're heading, how to move the math forward. And so, I might just wonder if anybody's thinking about using a particular relationship, and if nobody says, ... nobody sparks, nobody whatever, in that moment, I'm actually looking... When I just said, "Nobody sparks." Like, they might say, "No, I didn't." But they might also go, "No, I didn't, but that just sparked something for me." So, I'm not going to say, "Could you?" yet. I'm going to wait to see if I see the spark, and if I see the spark, then I'm just going to like encourage that. Like, "Okay." When I see that spark, then I might say, you know, "Go." If I don't see the spark, then I'm going to say, "Could you?" And then, I'm going to wait, pause, wait. If nobody sparks with that, then I'm probably outside the zone of their proximal development. So... Is that right? I'm outside of their zone of proximal development? 

Kim  15:10  
Mmhm.

Pam  14:47  
Yeah. So, then I'm going to back off. But in that moment, if it sparks, then we'll dive. Dive, not meaning I'm going to now tell them what to do, but I'm going to say, "How does that impact? How are you thinking about that? What are you inclined to do right now?" Like, does that go somewhere? So, that's a very... I love that move. I wish I knew who I got it from. But, yeah. That's a nice one. Kim, I think that really speaks to many people see this weird dichotomy in teaching. You're either discovery learning, or your direct teaching, or whatever. You're telling kids exactly what to do. And those are the only two sort of sides of things. Whereas most teachers are like, "We know that's not true. Everybody's doing a bunch of mishmash of everything." But if you are arguing that "discovery", quote, unquote, learning, doesn't work, you sort of think that there's this, you know, everybody's just wandering around and nobody's being helpful. The teacher's not guiding at all, right? It's just like, "Sure hope you guys discover that on your own."

Kim  14:56  
Yeah.

Pam  14:47  
This is an example of a very intentional teacher move that is moving the math forward in a way that honors the kids' agency, and what the kid brings to the table, and what the students are already is pinging for them and that they can sort of move forward with, but isn't me saying, "Now, go mimic this."

Kim  15:32  
Right, right. Mmhm.

Pam  15:33  
So, it's that fine... I don't want to say "fine line" because that makes it sound like it's on either side. It's a craft. It's a way of knowing the direction that we want to take the math, that we want to help build, develop kids brains, and getting that to happen by involving them in it.

Kim  17:49  
Yeah, and the truth of the matter is just because somebody didn't think about it on their own that time doesn't mean it's not something that they can think about. They just didn't in that moment for whatever reason. And so, you're making the suggestion that something is also desirable, or maybe more desirable based on those numbers. And you're just making note of it, so that they can go, "Oh, hadn't thought about that." That happens in our lives all the time, where you go, "Oh, I hadn't thought about that yet." 

Pam  18:18  
But I can.

Kim  18:19  
And you're just lobbing it out. Yeah.

Pam  18:21  
Yeah,

And if I can, then I can take it and run with it and continue to build, and grow, and learn. And I'll give you some credit for early on. When I was trying to figure out what Fosnot was doing and trying to make sense of the NSF funded curriculum and all that in my early journey, there were some times where you said, "You know, Pam, there are times where I'll lob stuff out." And I was like, "What do you mean?" And it's exactly that. You know like, we're you're... Yeah, everything I just said. You would throw something out to see if it pings. "Could you?" 

Kim  18:50  
Yeah. 

Pam  18:51  
And if it doesn't ping, you dropped it, and you said to yourself, "What can I do to get kids, so that that will ping for them? How can we build up to that?" But if it did ping, then you let them fly. And that was important for me. Like, to me that was a... Yeah, it was good. Way to go.

Kim  19:08  
Okay. Thanks. Alright, I'm giving you two more, but you have like 30 seconds for each. 

Pam  19:14  
Okay, I got 30 seconds for each. I got it. 

Kim  19:17  
Alright, ready?

Pam  19:18  
Okay.

Kim  19:18  
The first one that we have left is, "Tell us more about that."

Pam  19:21  
That's an intentional discourse move to send two important messages. One, you don't have to have the entire answer to be in this conversation here. So, as soon as I say, "Tell us more," everybody can go, "Oh, it's okay for me just to give a little bit of an answer because then she's going to follow up with, "Can anybody tell us more about that? Or even me. Can I tell us more about that?" 

Kim  19:40  
Mmhm.

Pam  19:41  
Also, it gives the entire room a chance to hear it again and to add on a little bit.

Kim  19:50  
Mmhm. 

Pam  19:50  
It's slowing the conversation down. It's helping it all become more point-at-able and discussable.

Kim  19:55  
Mmhm.

Pam  19:56  
We're going to... Anne Roman used to say, once you teach a horse a trick or a move or whatever, then you just sit there, and you let it soak. And so, "Tell us more about that" gives us an opportunity to soak in it longer, and deeper, and with more connections. Okay.

Kim  20:12  
Yeah. Alright. Last one.

Pam  20:15  
I didn't hear an alarm go off, so okay.

Kim  20:17  
No buzzer. The last one is, "Who wants their brain to think like that?" That's paraphrasing somebody gave. I don't remember exactly what you're phrase is.

Pam  20:25  
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, so 30 seconds. This is an intentional move to help with mindset, so that when somebody says something clever, or efficient, or sophisticated, there's a strategy shared. There's a moment where a kid could go, "Oh, man. You're so smart. I can't believe you did that. I didn't come up with that. I'm just dumb and you're cool." And that like they could have this moment of feeling less than because they didn't have the idea, the strategy, the slick move. In that moment, I want to say, "Do you have access to that? Do you understand what just happened? Your brain? That makes sense? Ooh, tell your brain, 'I want my brain to do that next time.'" So, send that growth mind. Don't send the message, "Oh, you're cool and I'm not cool." Send the message, "Ooh, I have access to that. That makes sense to me. My brain can do that. I want my brain to do that next time." That's a positive message to send all of us when we see something, "Ooh, that was cool. I have access to that. I want my brain. I want to do that next time." 

Kim  20:25  
Yeah. 

Pam  20:25  
Now, I am empowering myself to know, "I can math like that."

Kim  20:25  
Yeah.

Pam  20:25  
I'll just go outside of math. "I can do that thing." Like, that's a positive growth mindset whatever it is in our lives. We can see it. We believe we have access to it. Send that growth mindset. "I can do that. I can be more like Kim." 

Kim  20:25  
Yeah.

What's super fun is I've seen people comment that to other people's strategies on MathStratChat. Really, really fun to see. Okay, I'm going to give you another 30 seconds. I just mentioned several that our members called out. Do you happen to have one that we have not said? And so, it's okay that you don't, if you don't.

Pam  20:25  
Oh, golly.

Kim  20:25  
I know. Put you on the spot.

Pam  20:25  
Yeah, they came up with some really good ones. 

Kim  20:25  
Is there anything that you are thinking about? Oh, I know another one for you. I'll just give you this hint. It's a new one that you want to use more and more often because you heard it and you love it. And you, I think you have a post it note of it. I've heard you say.

Pam  22:21  
I just looked at it. I totally just looked at it. There's a post-it note right above my monitor that I can see. "What are you realizing now?"

Kim  22:29  
Yeah, so good.

Pam  22:30  
And I'm still not using it as much as I want to, but I actually heard a teacher say it the other day, and I was like, "Oh, great, teacher move."

Kim  22:37  
Yeah. 

Pam  22:38  
It's a way of recognizing that learning is continual, and that learning is when we realize something that makes the math realizable. So, it's a moment where even if a person wasn't thinking that way, but as they're like, "Oh, yeah. That makes sense," I could go, "Ooh, what are you realizing now?" Giving them an opportunity to clarify it, cement it, make it theirs. Yeah, that's a really good one.

Kim  23:00  
Yeah.

Pam  23:00  
Yeah.

Kim  23:00  
It's a favorite for sure. Alright, listeners, you can choose to work on the one that we are continuing to work on. You can choose any of these other fan favorites. You can even say "Bam!" but not "Pam" because that's just personality. Thanks for diving in with us.

Pam  23:18  
Alright, y'all, thanks for tuning in and teaching more and more real math. To find out more about the Math is Figure-Out-Able movement, visit mathisfigureoutable.com. And it's "Bam!" not "Pam". Let's keep spreading the word that Math is Figure-Out-Able!