Pam  0:00  
Hey, fellow mathers! Welcome to the podcast where Math is Figure-Out-Able. I'm Pam Harris, a former mimicker turned mather.

Kim  0:09  
And I'm Kim Montague, a reasoner who now knows how to share her thinking with others. At Math is Figure-Out-Able, we are on a mission to improve math teaching. 

Pam  0:16  
Y'all, we know that algorithms are super cool historic achievements, but they are terrible teaching tools because mimicking step-by-step procedures actually traps students into using less sophisticated reasoning than the problems could be developing. 

Kim  0:29  
In this podcast, we help you teach math-ing, building relationships with your students, and grappling with mathematical relationships. 

Pam  0:36  
Y'all, we invite you to join us to make math more figure-out-able.

Kim  0:41  
Hey, I've got a review for you today. 

Pam  0:43  
Oh, nice. Is it a good one?

Kim  0:44  
Yeah, it's fun. Yeah, they're all good, yeah. 

Pam  0:46  
Like, you would ever say a bad one. Have you ever seen a bad one? I don't think I've seen a bad one. 

Kim  0:49  
It's very sweet. People are leaving very kind words.

Pam  0:52  
Yay. We appreciate it. 

Kim  0:53  
So, this is from Robin. We do. Robin said, "I cannot recommend this podcast enough. I recently moved from elementary school to sixth grade math in the middle school. I have always loved math. I sort of think in numbers. Even with some built in numeracy sense, I have learned a ton from Pam and Kim. I work on colleagues all the time to get them interested in certain episodes or workshops. I'm trying to get into Journey..." which is our coaching program "...through the district and hoping that more in the district will follow. Although, I wish I could go back to the beginning of my career and start over with math. At least I know I am making positive changes now. "

Pam  1:31  
Nice, great. 

Kim  1:32  
I mean it's just...

Pam  1:33  
Great growth mindset there. That's excellent.

Kim  1:35  
Yeah, sounds like she just has like so much joy about like what she's doing in her room. That's super fun to hear.

Pam  1:40  
Super nice, yeah. Robin, let's get you in. Let's get your district going. 

Kim  1:44  
Yeah.

Pam  1:45  
Let's work with you. Love it.

Kim  1:46  
Okay, so today, we're going to answer what we think is an important question, and it's a question we get asked from time to time. And it's important and it's big, so we're going to take the time to ask. You have the question? What...

Pam  1:59  
Here's the question. "What does it take... In your experience, Pam and Kim, what does it take to really make good change in a school's math program?" So, yeah. We get asked that. We don't just get asked that from time. We get asked that a lot. Like, yeah, what does it really take? 

Kim  2:16  
Yeah.

Pam  2:16  
What kinds of things can happen? What's your experience that can really make good change in a school's math program?

Kim  2:21  
Yeah. So, I think we're going to start today by saying here's what we have found to be not so successful, and then talk about what is highly successful. So, some things that we think people think work that we don't agree. 

Pam  2:35  
Yeah. So, I think it's interesting that several years ago. So, for quite a while now, teachers have kind of... We made this shift where we have expected teachers to be expert teachers and curriculum writers at the same time.

Kim  2:51  
Yeah.

Pam  2:51  
Where we sort of took resources away from them. We kind of... What's the word I want? Denigrated? We sort of talked badly about textbooks. We like, "Oh, if you're a textbook teacher..." I taught in a district where the curriculum director was very proud of the fact that he had taken all the textbooks away from the elementary teachers because they were going to teach better now. And I was like, "Uhhh... I'm not sure they're subject experts." Like, I use a textbook to help me at least think about scope and sequence. And so, that doesn't work. We don't recommend that you are expecting teachers to be expert teachers and curriculum writers at the same time. 

Kim  3:28  
I mean, even the time alone. When you and I wrote, we weren't in the classroom writing a particular piece of work, you know?

Pam  3:37  
Yeah, we weren't doing both at the same time. 

Kim  3:38  
Yeah. 

Pam  3:38  
We would have to carve out time to do curriculum writing. So, that we could be the expert teachers, and in a different space and time be curriculum writers. 

Kim  3:52  
Yeah, and so the flip of that...

Pam  3:48  
And lets be clear, that's when you're a good curriculum writer, which we are. Sorry, that was a little (unclear). Can I be humble there? That's not everybody's bailiwick. Okay, Sorry, (unclear).

Kim  3:57  
No, it's okay. So the flip of that...

Pam  3:57  
We could do a whole episode on that. I'm stopping, I promise.

Kim  4:10  
The flip of that, though, is not to overwhelm teachers with resources. So, another thing that we think is not helping is handing teachers everything under the sun and saying like, "You get to pick. You choose. Like, whatever you want to do." And really, the problem with that is that teachers also don't have the time to sort through it all. You know, we work with leaders who buy great stuff, but then they spend all of their time trying to piece it together and know what to do when and in what order. And, you know, it's not a magic resource. There's not going to be the thing that's perfect, that's going to change everything for you. 

Pam  4:47  
Yeah, speaking of magic resources, I think that was kind of one of the things that happened in the 90s was the... Or maybe the late 80s. NSF funded a bunch of universities and sort of think tanks to create textbooks. They said, "That'll fix it. Like, if we can just get some really good textbooks out there, it'll magically..." And I'm not saying that those weren't really good. They were. They were excellent for their time. But districts didn't know how to utilize that well, and teachers weren't trained enough. And so, then when that didn't, quote, unquote "work", then it all got tossed. And so...

Kim  5:19  
Yeah.

Pam  5:19  
There's not a... Like, you just said, it's not... Good change is not only a magic curriculum. 

Kim  5:27  
Yeah.

Pam  5:27  
It's good to have good resources, but don't overwhelm teachers by giving them too many good resources and expecting them to have to pick through. 

Kim  5:35  
Yeah. Another thing that I feel like people...

Pam  5:39  
Swing the pendulum back the other way. Yeah.

Kim  5:40  
Yeah, another thing that I think people think is going to make everything better is having these lock step plans. 

Pam  5:46  
Yeah.

Kim  5:47  
Day to day, everyone's on the same page. We're going to hand it to teachers. They just have to like deliver the words. You know, I think I've shared here that, you know, when I first started as a coach, I thought I was being so incredibly helpful by gathering all the things, putting in an order, writing special notes, handing it to teachers. And, you know, the challenge with that, the reason that that can fail is because you're not being responsive to teachers and classroom needs, student needs. Teachers not being involved in the thinking of the planning and understanding their students and the content. So, hand delivering lock-step plans isn't going to solve your problem either. 

Pam  6:25  
Yeah, we both went through a phase here in Texas where the state sort of had this verifiable... What were those dumb words they used? Where they said, "If your teachers would lock-step in the exact same place every day according to this plan, then they'll have six weeks to review before the test, and all your scores will go up." And like, we get why there's some desire to have some sort of scope, and so that teachers do... Like, we've also worked with schools where there's no scope, right? And teachers just teach what they get to. And then they're like, "Hey, this group, they never did get this whole topic. You know, we just make it there." Like, that's not ideal either. 

Kim  7:01  
Yeah.

Pam  7:02  
But the idea of locking? There's no way that I could have taught in a place where I had to do a thing on a specific day, every day, day in and day out. I would have lost my love-in mind. 

Kim  7:10  
Yeah, yeah. 

Pam  7:11  
So, we're kind of describing these ends of the spectrum. 

Kim  7:15  
Yeah.

Pam  7:15  
We're trying to kind of help you think about like the ends. Don't be in the ends. 

Kim  7:20  
Yeah, yeah. 

Pam  7:21  
Also, Kim, why did I write this in my notes? Don't be directionless. Don't who?

Kim  7:26  
So, we don't want you having lock-step plans. But also, it's not, no direction.

Pam  7:32  
Right.

Kim  7:32  
You know, that's the other pendulum. We don't buy this idea that, you know, anything goes at any time. You know, having focus, and having direction, and having goals is important. You got to know where you're going. So, I think we just described a lot of the swings that happened. Teachers are probably like, "That's the situation I'm in. That's the one I was in, and a new person comes in." So, you know, when we talk about making shifts in a school math program, you know, we're kind of being a little bit glib about some of these, but that is what's happening. And sometimes the leader will come in and say, "I see what's happening or has been happening. We're going to do this other thing." And yeah. What we believe ultimately is that shared math experiences and really good pedagogy are what make the difference.

Pam  8:20  
And when you say that, I think, to be specific, like the shared math experiences are being facilitated with really good pedagogy, right? It's not that we're saying you got to have... Well anyway. Yeah. I'll just...

Kim  8:32  
Yeah.

Pam  8:32  
Yes. So, the math matters.

Kim  8:34  
Yeah.

Pam  8:36  
The number of workshops that I've seen put on, the number of conference sessions, the number of PD sessions that don't have any mathematics component to it, to me, is troubling. So, I think if math is really figure-out-able. So, a few "ifs" here. If math is really figure-out-able, which we are suggesting it is, and most of us were taught in ways that math was rote memorizeable and just spit out the answers, all directed towards answers, that means that most of us don't have experiences math-ing in such a way that we know the math content for teaching, and we know how to help students gain that math content for teaching. That we need to know that, the all the ins and the outs. Not just be able to solve problems. That's a good start. But we need to know where kids get hung up, and the way things are connected, and the major ways that mathematicians think about those problems, and the major relationships to build. The math matters. And what teachers think about the nature of math, and the teaching of math matters. And the best way to get teachers on the same page, for that perspective, is to math with them. And that's where the good pedagogy comes in. 

Kim  9:54  
Yeah. 

Pam  9:55  
It's not about telling teachers. Kim, how many leaders have we had come out to us and say, "I tell teachers that all the time."

Kim  10:02  
Yeah.

Pam  10:02  
And we're like, "Okay, so we're trying to get teachers to stop telling students the math." 

Kim  10:09  
Yeah. 

Pam  10:09  
We're recommending that, leaders, you stop telling teachers the pedagogy.

Kim  10:14  
Yeah.

Pam  10:15  
Yeah. 

Kim  10:15  
And it's...

Pam  10:16  
They have to experience it. Yeah.

Kim  10:17  
Yeah. It's a paradigm shift to say, "I need to take the time in my professional learning situations to do the content together." I think, you know, I think back to when I was in the classroom and we would do science experiments, and labs, and talk about all the things when we were in a science training. 

Pam  10:36  
Mmhm.

Kim  10:36  
But that wasn't true always in math stuff. 

Pam  10:41  
Well, unless I was in it.

Kim  10:43  
True. That's true. So, another thing that we think is really important for a leader is to recognize where people are and to celebrate their success where they are. You know, I think, you know, I have such a heart for teachers. And I know that teachers can feel like they have to jump off and do all the things or nothing, and if they don't do all the things, then, you know, they're not doing it well enough. They're not doing good enough. They're not... And so, you know, one of the things that we like to consider... We've mentioned our Success Map for teaching and for learning here on the podcast plenty of times. But recognizing where people are on their journey, and like what content, and what they think about, and their numeracy, and then how does that bleed into the classroom, and what their planning is like, and what their teacher moves are like. We have to be okay with the fact that teachers are on a journey and that forward progress is the goal.

Pam  11:36  
Mmm, nice.

Kim  11:37  
That's the goal. We need to differentiate for teachers the way that we expect them to differentiate for their students. And if they're making forward progress, that's a success. 

Pam  11:48  
And just like you don't leave... Differentiating for students doesn't mean you leave a student doing their cavemen-like strategies. You help them develop as a more mature mathematician. You don't leave teachers. Differentiating for teachers doesn't mean you leave teachers doing what they're doing. You help them mature. You help them develop into better and better practitioners. One of the ways that we suggest works really well is as you are doing those math-ing, you're having those math-ing experiences where you, yourself, the leader of the math-ing experiences is using really good pedagogy, you are then giving teachers bite-off-able assignments with accountability. So, something that they can... You might do something in the PD or in the PLC, where it's, you know like, let's math here. But now, what does that look like in your classroom? And there's some accountability to go with it. So, that might look like the leader facilitates a Problem String with the teachers. Then, the teachers watch and study video of kids doing that exact Problem String with an expert teacher. Now, that could look like a lesson study format where you're actually going into a classroom and watching it happen with students. That could look like a video of it happening. But where you're studying that happening with students. So, you get a chance now not just to solve the problems. Like, the teachers might just solve the problems in their math-ing experience. Hopefully, it's facilitated well, so they're being exposed to other strategies and the connections between other strategies and relationships. But now, they're seeing the mathematics for teaching. What are students doing? Where are they getting off? What are the paths they're taking that are less fruitful? What are the things we need to have in our back pocket to help challenge students who are ready for it? That studying the video or studying kids doing it now gives us a chance to really dive into the math for teaching. Then, that bite-off-able assignment says, "Go do that in class. We've now studied it with kids at your grade level. Let's go. What does that look like in your classroom? Go do it." How do we know you did it? Well, maybe  the coach is going to pop in. Maybe we're going to ask you to bring back a picture of your board that you did. Later, after we've got that good practice happening, the teachers are all doing it, maybe we might say video that next Problem String. Bring back part of it. Let the teacher select the part that they bring back. So, it's not a gotcha moment, but it's a let me showcase part of what happened well in that string.

Kim  14:12  
Yeah. 

Pam  14:12  
Those are types of bite-off-able assignments where we really see growth with teachers.

Kim  14:18  
Mmhm. Yeah. 

Pam  14:19  
Alright, so these are the kinds of things that we do in our Math is Figure-Out-Able Solution. So, if you contact us, Robin, and say, "Hey, really hoping that our district or our school works with you, we will talk to you about our Math is Figure-Out-Able Solution because we provide in our coaching, our live coaching meetings and in our workshops, we provide opportunity for shared math-ing experiences, where leaders, teachers, adults, get a chance to join in those shared math-ing experiences. Whether it's in a live event, it's a virtual event, or maybe it's a video watching it happen with expert teachers. It might be where you join in the coaching sessions and get to ask the questions you have. Where you can say, "Hey, Math is FigureOutAble team, like we've got these questions happening in our school, in our district. They're specific to us here what's happening." And so, you get to attend these volunteer coaching sessions and get those specific questions asked.

Kim  15:15  
Yeah. 

Pam  15:15  
Also, in our Math is FigureOutAble solution, we meet with leaders and we talk about your specific circumstance, and what's happening,  what has happened, what's the feeling, tone, and atmosphere with your teachers? And then very purposely plan for shifts over time. 

Kim  15:32  
Yeah.

Pam  15:33  
Long term content coaching.

Kim  15:35  
Yeah. 

Pam  15:35  
Kim, I've just met with several leaders, large, small districts, both over the past week. Just this week. Where I actually suggested to them, "Let's do this with you this next year before you dive into our Math is FigureOutAble Solution," because of what's been happening with the atmosphere, the sort of situation in their specific district is, it doesn't make sense for them to dive into this year. It's not going to work. 

Kim  15:59  
Agreed. 

Pam  16:00  
We plan for long term systemic shifts, that then can stay because you have sort of an informed citizenry. Enough people are on board that doesn't matter the next. Because, by the way, we are curriculum agnostic, so it doesn't matter the next resource that comes in because you've now developed your best resource, which is your people. 

Kim  16:20  
Yeah.

Pam  16:21  
People are now those expert facilitators. It doesn't matter with the next educational shift that comes in with a new superintendent or whatever, your people are prepared to ride that wave the best way possible. 

Kim  16:32  
Yeah, yeah. I'm going to chime in here that one of the other things that we do when we meet with leaders is help them think about their teachers' bandwidth. 

Pam  16:38  
Mmm, nice.

Kim  16:38  
You know, there's a lot of different opportunities for professional development, and a lot of different things that we could throw at teachers, but we really asked them to slow down and think about the people in front of them and think critically about who's ready for what right now, and then what might they be ready for in the future. And again, that speaks to what I was saying earlier about the need to differentiate for teachers. Meet them where they are and make that forward progress.

Pam  17:04  
And one of the ways we do that is when we meet with the leaders and we help them really identify, like you just said, where teachers are and their bandwidth, then we differentiate for teachers, and we give teachers, we help leaders set minimum expectations for everybody. But then we open the fire hose to our learning suite to everybody else, to anyone who has bandwidth to dive into whatever they want to. That gives them the chance then to swallow whatever they have the bandwidth for, whatever they're interested in, whatever is in the moment really driving them. Those people have the opportunity to do, while we have those minimum expectations sort of set for everyone else. 

Kim  17:40  
Yeah. 

Pam  17:41  
Another thing that's really nice is then you have kind of a setup plan for new teachers. In other words, a new teacher joins your district, if you've got Math is FigureOutAble happening in your district, this is what we do here. So, it could become a part of your interview process, so that people are bought in when they start. But it's also part of your new-to-district training. We got principals and leaders being involved in that new training, so that, "This is what we do here. And we invite you to join in, dive in, learn as much as you can. And we're going to set these minimum expectations for you."

Kim  18:14  
Yeah.

Pam  18:15  
It really helps create communities in the school, in the district where everybody's clear we are on this path together. 

Kim  18:22  
Yeah.

Pam  18:23  
Kim, one of the ways that we do that is we've been working hard for the last, golly, how many years? Where we have been in schools. Did we mention on this podcast we recently just filmed in the school. What an amazing experience.

Kim  18:35  
So good!

Pam  18:36  
I had... It might have been maybe the... How do I say this? The group of kids I've ever worked with that... I'll say this. There was not a mean kid in there. Like, is that? I don't know. Can I say those words? Like, you know, like if I go into a classroom, I'm pretty sure there's a kid who's just... I'm going to have to work hard because that kid's going to throw something during the class. That kid's going to try to derail something. Now, I've been in classrooms where there's more than like half, where half the class. You know, if the teacher has set up the atmosphere where teacher gets the kids. You know, that kind of? 

Kim  19:13  
Yeah.

Pam  19:14  
Maybe "mean" is not the right. These kids were just all... I don't know. It was great.

Kim  19:18  
Let me say this.

Pam  19:19  
Okay, help me, help me. 

Kim  19:20  
It was very clear that the teacher has done a fantastic job creating community because in those couple of days, we did see kids that had like moments where they withdrew, or moments where they were like, "I'm not going to respond right now," but they handled themselves so beautifully. The teacher handled them well. They were like just the atmosphere was an amazing one. 

Pam  19:44  
Thank you. I didn't mean to interrupt. The kids around them also handled it, right? 

Kim  19:48  
Yeah, yeah.

Pam  19:49  
It was this classroom atmosphere of (unclear).

Kim  19:51  
Lot of tolerance.

Pam  19:52  
Yeah, just, you know, in a super positive... Anyway. so, we go into classrooms and we video Problem Strings with expert teachers, and we have a bank now of kindergarten, K-2, 3-5, 6-8. 9-12.

Kim  20:06  
Yeah.

Pam  20:06  
Where you can go in and you can go how does this look like in a sixth grade classroom? First grade? Third grade? High school? Pre-Cal? Like, pick your flavor, and you can go and see kids grappling with what does it mean to teach math that's figure-out-able at that grade level?

Kim  20:23  
Yeah.

Pam  20:24  
So, if we're asking teachers to be accountable, we suggest we've got to give them the resources to study. They can't just look at some resource, and then like what does it look like? I can't tell you the transformation that  I made when I was able to see math-ing happening. 

Kim  20:44  
Yeah.

Pam  20:45  
And it was the videos. And I'll give Cathy Fosnot a ton of credit. When I was able to see it happening with her expert teachers, and then be able to study it with you, Kim, and the two of us would go, "Wait, was that on purpose? And why would you do that? And look at the outcome. And wait, let's back that up. How did they get that to happen?"

Kim  21:02  
Yeah.

Pam  21:02  
Because we could... If we can hand teachers those kinds of resources to study, study with them, now we have teachers that actually have the confidence, the preparation, that their efforts are going to be fruitful. It's going to work well enough. And that everybody can move forward in a very positive Math is Figure-Out-Able way.

Kim  21:21  
Yeah.

Pam  21:22  
Y'all, if you're interested to join, work with us, your school or your district, we invite you to check out www.mathisfigureoutable.com/solution, where we work with schools and districts to make those shifts that we all want, in a systemic, long term shift kind of way where everybody is moving along to really shift schools and districts math teaching to be figure-out-able. Y'all, thanks for tuning in and teaching more and more real math. To find out more about the Math is Figure-Out-Able movement, visit mathisfigureoutable.com. Thanks for spreading the word that Math is Figure-Out-Able!