Pam  0:01  
Hey, fellow math-ers, I didn't scroll up again. Welcome to the podcast where Math is Figure-Out-Able. I'm Pam, a former mimicker turned math-er who keeps forgetting to scroll.

Kim  0:12  
I'm Kim, a reasoner who now knows how to share her thinking with others. At Math is Figure-Out-Able, we are on a mission to improve math teaching. 

Pam  0:20  
We know that algorithms are super cool, historic achievements, but they are not good teaching tools because mimicking step-by-step procedures actually traps students into using less sophisticated reasoning than the problems are intended to develop.

Kim  0:33  
In this podcast, we help you teach math-ing, building relationships with your students, and grappling with mathematical relationships.

Pam  0:40  
We invite you to join us to make math more figure-out-able. 

Kim  0:44  
Hey, hey.

Pam  0:45  
Hey, hey. What's up?

Kim  0:47  
Lots of stuff. We're doing good work.

Pam  0:49  
You got a senior this year. You're busy.

Kim  0:50  
I know. Oh, listen, I have like a month. It's busy times, busy times. Hey, you haven't mentioned your grandkids lately. 

Pam  0:59  
Oh!

Kim  1:00  
What's going on with them?

Pam  1:01  
Wow, yesterday. So, maybe I mentioned I have one that's a bit more kind of in your face, and one that's a bit more in his own world.

Kim  1:09  
Oh, I had one of each of those.

Pam  1:11  
There you go. There you go. And, yesterday, the one who's in his own world, I got three hugs from that kid. And not just like, "Okay, you know, hug grandma run away." But like, kind of snuggle hug. Oh.

Kim  1:23  
I love that.

Pam  1:24  
A two-year-old snuggle hug. Man, that was like, yeah. It was pretty good. And we made homemade ice cream last night, and they were both, they both had ice cream every like. They would drink it. Yeah, because they would take their bowl, and then they would like drink it, and so it's like this circle around their face and a mustache. So cute. (unclear).

Kim  1:42  
Cooper and I did a race. Oh, sorry, go ahead.

Pam  1:44  
Oh, fun. No. Go, go, go. 

Kim  1:47  
Cooper and I did a race recently, and you mentioned the face. There were some treats afterwards, and there was a tiny, like two-year-old who had something that had chocolate, a chocolate donut, and it was everywhere. Like, their face looked like they were playing in mud, and I really cringed. I was like, "Oh." I would not have loved that.

Pam  2:08  
Clean that up. Yeah, chocolate doesn't necessarily come off all that easily either. It kind of sticks on them. Kids are the best.

Kim  2:18  
They are.

Pam  2:18  
Kids and chocolate. Kids, chocolate, and ice cream.

Kim  2:18  
There you go.

Pam  2:19  
There you go. All of the things.

Kim  2:19  
Alright, let's get started.

Pam  2:19  
Let's get started. 

Kim  2:20  
You good?

Pam  2:22  
No, we're good. We're good.

Kim  2:23  
Alright. So, our listeners know. I hope you know. That we do Challenges a couple times a year. And they are such a fun opportunity for people to join in and have some math-ing experiences. We love doing them. And one of the things that's so fantastic is that we get to partner with companies who have amazing products. And, you know, it's so fun to work with them. And listen, we love their products because these things work in partnership with what we do. We think that the things they have are great. They are in line with our principles about learning math. And so, we thought that we would mention them today, but also unpack a little bit about why we love these things to help you get a feel for like what are our principles when we decide what we recommend, so that you know that what we're recommending is something that we fully endorse, but why we recommend it.

Pam  3:25  
Yeah, and it's interesting, Kim. More and more we all get, maybe especially me, get requests to review stuff. 

Kim  3:32  
Yeah.

Pam  3:33  
So, maybe we'll give you an idea. Anybody who's listening right now and you're like, "Oh, I wonder if she'd endorse our stuff." Or Math is Figure-Out-Able will endorse our stuff. We'll give you some ideas of the kinds of things. What are our principles when we decide, you know, what we're going to endorse, what we recommend. So, Kim, is it okay if we start with maybe the easy thing is, what are the things that we... No. How do I say this? None of the people, the things, the products that we endorse do a certain thing. Can you read my mind? Like, what that one thing would be? 

Kim  4:06  
Oh, yeah, for sure. They don't head towards an algorithm. Like, steps in algorithm is not. Yeah.

Pam  4:11  
Yeah, so if your product is all about getting kids better at something, so that then they do the algorithm better or the algorithm is your goal, then eh. Like, just off the cuff, it kind of doesn't matter how good you do anything else, not our goal. Not our goal. And so, in order to send that message more clearly. You know, we would hate to muddy the water by saying, "Oh, sure. Like, this part, but not that." Anyway, so we're kind of picky about that. Maybe we can start there. Yep. To move on, I'm going to mention somebody who we recommend, and then maybe we could talk a little bit about why. What is a thing that kind of exemplifies why we... So, for example, a few years ago, good friend of ours, who we have worked with a lot, who then went to hand2mind, came to us and said, "Would you consider creating four basically sets of tasks with manipulatives?" So they call them kits because it's the sets of tasks with manipulatives. "Would you consider creating these with hand2mind?" And we said, "Absolutely." Because A, we knew Brittany, and so we knew she'd let us do it right. And B, hand2mind, gives us the opportunity to use manipulatives in the right way, at the right time, with the right manipulative, and we can build what we call our basics through experience.

Kim  5:35  
Yeah. Yeah, when people say basics, I think a lot of times people think addition facts and multiplication facts. That's kind of like the first two things that come in mind. But we've actually done some episodes where we talk about fluency and what our basics are, and how there's a lot of other relationships that we find just as valuable, maybe even more so in a lot of ways. So, hand2mind let us really put those things into the products, and we're so grateful. But also, more importantly, we wanted to share those with teachers. And, you know, it's just really cool that they let us share those in the Challenge.

Pam  6:14  
Yeah, nice. Alright, let's pick another one. Kim, how about... Let's pick Number Hive. What are you thinking about Number Hive? 

Kim  6:22  
Oh, yeah.

Pam  6:22  
Why do we recommend that? Yeah. 

Kim  6:23  
Number Hive does give students the opportunity to create fluency. Not only about those facts that we talked about, but there's a variety of different versions of the games. Which there's like a bunch, right? And he's constantly creating more versions.

Pam  6:39  
Well, it's Chris.

Kim  6:40  
Yeah, right? But what's really cool about that is that that means that there's multiple different entry points. So, you can play collaboratively with a friend that you know, but you could also play against someone else if you're on the online version. But there's also paper versions. And what I think is really cool about that is if you have the paper versions, and then you're in a classroom, you can have different students working on different games, but it's all the same game. So, like we're all playing Number Hive, but you can have different groups grab different ones of the things that they want to work on, and that's one of the things that we love. You know, we often talk about the "Close to" games, Close to 10, Close to 20, Close to 100, and it was one of the ways to kind of differentiate for students in one classroom to have them work on the version. And it's one of the reasons why we love Number Hive.

Pam  7:31  
Yeah, so a collection of games that really help build fluency, both online and, like you said, that you can print out. And he also has a really nice sort of backend to help you kind of track where kids are, and, like you said, give Kids those multiple entry points. So, yeah, nicely done.

Kim  7:48  
Yeah.

Pam  7:49  
Alright, next.

Kim  7:50  
Yeah.

Pam  7:51  
How about Math for Love games, Dan Finkel. And he's a game creator. Designer is probably a better word.

Kim  7:58  
Yeah.

Pam  7:58  
Both. Designer, creator. Yeah, he's got Prime Climb and Tiny Polka Dots are maybe my two favorite.

Kim  8:03  
Yeah, for sure.

Pam  8:03  
That he's got out there. Yeah, what do you have to say about those?

Kim  8:06  
Well, you know, one of the things that we talked about with games is that they have to have some sort of strategy. You know, you and I are not Candy Land lovers. While, though, did you play with your kids? I mean, I did because Cooper.

Pam  8:17  
Do you know how we played Candy Land? Well, you finish Cooper, then I'll say.

Kim  8:20  
Well, I mean, Cooper just loves to play games, and so we did our fair share of those kinds of games. But man.

Pam and Kim  8:28  
(unclear)

Pam  8:29  
So, I'm a strategy fan, right? Just like you. So, when we played Candy Land, I would get the kids' attention. Like, "Look over there!" And then I would monkey with the deck.

Kim  8:38  
No, you did not!

Pam  8:40  
Totally. I totally would monkey with the dumb deck, because it was just completely haphazard and whatever. And so, I would make it be that the game would last just as long as I could stand it. So, I would have them do the back and forth and whatever, just as long as I could stand it. And then magically someone would win, and we were done with that game. And then we could go play something else that actually had more strategy. That's
not terrible.

Kim  9:01  
Well, and I mean, it might be a little bit, but I get it. I understand why.

Pam  9:05  
Well, it made it so I would play it with them. I wouldn't play it with them the other way because it made me nuts. I was like, "This is nuts. Like, give me some..." Yeah. Okay.

Kim  9:12  
Okay. Well, we both, in our adult lives, love games that have strategy. We both have families who love strategy games. And, more importantly, as teachers, we really want to have strategy in our games in the classroom because we want to open up the opportunity for kids to really think and reason while they're playing. If you're just drawing a card and you move some stuff, you're not actually engaged mathematically. You're not really thinking about the moves you want to make and what will happen if you do this or that. So,

Pam  9:43  
Choosing.

Kim  9:44  
Yeah.

Pam  9:44  
Yeah, choosing strategically about why you're going to do what you're going to do, and then seeing the results, and eating the consequences, and then being able to make new choices. Yeah, all of that. That's another way of multiple entry points because kids who are just learning the math at hand in the game can just sort of play the game, but kids who are ready can be really be thinking strategy and be thinking moves ahead. And so, yeah. We really like that.

Kim  10:08  
Yeah. Okay. So, so far, no algorithm based stuff. Build our basics through experience, multiple entry, and they have to have some sort of challenge with strategy. What else?

Pam  10:20  
Nice, nice. Alright, maybe one of my favorites out there are the NumberClub games. 

Kim  10:25  
Yeah.

Pam  10:26  
So, NumberClub has Stick N' Split, and Brick-up, and Number Ramble. And he is not done. David's going to create a ton. He's already talked to me about a couple other ones. Super excited about. Somehow he really has this idea of what it is. It's kind of like our basics, Kim.

Kim  10:44  
Yeah.

Pam  10:44  
In a big way, he's got the basics right, and so he's going to help build the right basics in a fun game-like atmosphere. But maybe the most important thing, I'll let you say. What's the most important thing we like about the NumberClub games?

Kim  10:58  
Oh, yeah, for sure, that it's a game with no time constraints or emphasis on speed. You know, you actually had me look at one, or our team look at one recently, and that was the first thing I looked for. Because I knew, right? So, many of these games have, you know, a speed based. And it was like the countdown timer and the music that got more and more intense. I sent you a video, right? I was like, "Oh, my word!" I'm focused on the music. I mean, I know my facts, but like it was so distracting. And so, NumberClub's games are quite good. And I'll mention, last week we talked about a product approach.

Pam  11:37  
Yeah, yeah.

Kim  11:38  
Stick N' split is that. But, you know he's done a great job.

Pam  11:41  
Yeah, the quintessential product approach. Yeah. In fact, I think that's when we started using those terms.

Kim  11:46  
Probably.

Pam  11:47  
When we saw Stick N' Split, and we realized that we needed a way to be able to talk about kind of that approach to multiplication. So, yeah, in a huge way, if I was in a classroom, I'd be using NumberClub to build facts, and I'd be using Number Hive to practice facts.

Kim  12:03  
Yeah. 

Pam  12:03  
Is that a fair way? 

Kim  12:04  
Yeah. Yeah, it's fair. 

Pam  12:05  
Yeah. Yeah, totally. So, if you're wondering one or the other, nope, get them both. 

Kim  12:08  
Yeah.

Pam  12:09  
Yeah, cool. Alright, Kim, we also, in our Challenges, run a Wipebook giveaway. So, Wipebooks are those... Oh golly. What, they saw a need? You know, Peter Liljedhal said, "Put kids up at vertical, non-permanent surfaces. Wipebook said, "I mean, you could buy a bunch of whiteboards, but that's kind of expensive and hard to hang on the wall. Could we do something less permanent, but also, you know, sturdy enough?" And they've created these great, thick, but not too thick, hang them up on the wall. You know, they're not too heavy. What are they? Poster size? Poster size. Erasable. Last pretty well. Wipebooks that now you can put kids up all around. We use them in workshops. They're super easy to transport and to use. Take up, take down. You'll see them. Especially in the new workshops that we've... In our Building Powerful Mathematics asynchronous workshops, you'll see those all over the place. And when you do a presentation at a conference, Wipebook will offer to send you a set. They're super smart marketers, you know, because it just gets everybody goes, "Oh, what are those? Well, I want those in my classroom." And you kind of do because they're really handy.

Kim  12:43  
Yeah. Well, and so why do we love them? Because we love the opportunity to get students up, to get them working together. We are super fans of Rich Tasks. And so, you know, I think it's just the kind of thing that supports the type of math that we want to do. And so, you know, I was at a workshop or a conference recently, and the presenters... It wasn't you and Liesl, was it? No, I don't think it was. Somebody else who had Wipebooks around the room. And then they were like, "We can't take them back with us." And teachers were just like drooling. Like, they were standing next to one to try to get the opportunity to rip it down because they are fantastic, and support getting students together to think and talk together, and to do math together. So, another thing we love.

Pam  14:11  
Y'all, so if you're wondering if we will endorse your thing, you might kind of weigh it up against some of the things that we've talked about. They don't necessarily have to do what these different ones have done. But man, if you point towards algorithms, if you have an emphasis on speed, we're probably going to not be as excited about doing that. But we really want to thank Math for Love, Wipebook, NumberClub, Number Hive, hand2mind for supporting us in doing our work and also supporting us in our Challenges because we give away some of this in every one of our Challenges because they allow us to do that. We really appreciate that. Alright, y'all. Thanks for tuning in and teaching more and more real math. To find out more about the Math is Figure-Out-Able movement, visit mathisfigureoutable.com. Let's keep spreading the word that Math is Figure-Out-Able!